chrisp65 Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 1 hour ago, MakemineVanilla said: Do you think that is why singing is such an essential part of religious service, at least for Christians anyway? The Lutheran tradition of singing was primarily to introduce religious texts in the language of the masses in a way that could be committed to memory. Previously, warbling guff in Latin had been for the wealthy to admire as an art form. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 On 14/06/2022 at 19:07, chrisp65 said: The Lutheran tradition of singing was primarily to introduce religious texts in the language of the masses in a way that could be committed to memory. Previously, warbling guff in Latin had been for the wealthy to admire as an art form. I was very surprised to find out that Catholics don't sing hymns and it just added to the mystery of the religion. Catholicism has always been a great mystery to me, and reading Greene's Power and The Glory, and Waugh's Brideshead, didn't exactly recommend it either. Films like The Nun's Story and Black Narcissus, didn't help much either, not to mention Philomena. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 2 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: I was very surprised to find out that Catholics don't sing hymns and it just added to the mystery of the religion. Catholicism has always been a great mystery to me, and reading Greene's Power and The Glory, and Waugh's Brideshead, didn't exactly recommend it either. Films like The Nun's Story and Black Narcissus, didn't help much either, not to mention Philomena. Yeah, I’d have to admit I don’t know too much about Catholicism. Like you say, films like Philomena, which I get the impression is a pretty decent record of events. Also, Spotlight, with Mark Ruffalo is another excellent film based on true events, well worth a watch. I’m a good Methodist background that flirts with Quakers. I can’t be doing with all that gold and big hats and Latin and pretending you don’t touch yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted June 16, 2022 Author VT Supporter Share Posted June 16, 2022 33 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: Inwas very surprised to find out that Catholics don't sing hymns Of course they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 22 minutes ago, mjmooney said: Of course they do. Well, clears that up - I told you it was a mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 49 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I’m a good Methodist background that flirts with Quakers. I can’t be doing with all that gold and big hats and Latin and pretending you don’t touch yourself. I've long assumed that my father's side had a history of Methodism because of a rather puritanical streak in their attitudes to money and the demon drink Wesley's preachings certainly seemed to have a positive affect on the life-choices of the poor: but rumour has it that subsequent generations became Tories. I've always found the Quakers fascinating, and by the number of businesses started by Quakers, it seems to give credence to Weber's theories on the origins of capitalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 16, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted June 16, 2022 Having been raised as a Catholic I can confirm they most definitely sing hymns. And lots of them 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 29 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: I've long assumed that my father's side had a history of Methodism because of a rather puritanical streak in their attitudes to money and the demon drink Wesley's preachings certainly seemed to have a positive affect on the life-choices of the poor: but rumour has it that subsequent generations became Tories. I've always found the Quakers fascinating, and by the number of businesses started by Quakers, it seems to give credence to Weber's theories on the origins of capitalism. There are definitely two strands in modern Methodism that I encounter and they appear to crudely break down to: We could use this building to set off down a path of property speculation and flat conversions. We could sell this building, build something cheaper somewhere cheaper where we might do more good, the new building should be a food bank with a crèche, and give any remaining money to good causes. The one type is usually male lead, the other type is very often female lead. In fairness to both groups, neither would consider the building to be the church and any emotion expressed about leaving a building would only be expressed by the heathen neighbours and the planning authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC_Hitz Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 7 hours ago, MakemineVanilla said: I was very surprised to find out that Catholics don't sing hymns and it just added to the mystery of the religion. I had 12 years of hymns. "Sing it in the valleys! (Shout it from the mountain tops oooh oh!) Absolute nonce bangers from start to finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veloman Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 7 hours ago, chrisp65 said: . I’m a good Methodist background that flirts with Quakers. . I realise that many people on here don't believe in formal or indeed have any time for it but .... didn't Quakers do quite a bit for Society ? Decent work conditions ,housing etc particularly where they were factory owners/employers ?. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 4 minutes ago, veloman said: I realise that many people on here don't believe in formal or indeed have any time for it but .... didn't Quakers do quite a bit for Society ? Decent work conditions ,housing etc particularly where they were factory owners/employers ?. They were very in to their chocolate, Fry’s and maybe Cadbury (?) started up as an alternative to booze. A couple of banks were started by Quakers. Refused to go to war, campaigned to abolish slavery, had female priests 250 years ago. You can even be a nontheist Quaker if that’s your thing. Not so many left now, but still campaigning against Rwanda deportations, campaigning on Grenfell, prison reform. Generally on the correct side. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 (edited) It was Rowntree, as well as Cadbury, and Terry’s, and Fry’s! Incidentally, it was also Rowntree that promoted Darwinism and got it taught in Quaker schools from the 1860’s. Edited June 16, 2022 by chrisp65 The wonder of google! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 11 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: maybe Cadbury Definitely Cadbury .... We can thank Cadbury's for a relatively pub free desert around Bournville. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 16 hours ago, fruitvilla said: Definitely Cadbury .... We can thank Cadbury's for a relatively pub free desert around Bournville. So do you think it was the Quakers who burnt down The Bagot, in an attack of zealotry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PussEKatt Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 I eat Quaker oats,but im not relegious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 17, 2022 Moderator Share Posted June 17, 2022 1 hour ago, PussEKatt said: I eat Quaker oats,but im not relegious. Neither were the Quaker Oat company Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 @fruitvilla Quote Fully indoctrinated into the cult of science, neuroscientist Mona Sobhani, Ph.D., aggressively defended the dogma of scientific beliefs--until a series of life-altering events caused her to reconsider spirituality and psi concepts and launched her into a two-year investigation into the ineffable mysteries of our world. Sharing the extensive research she discovered on past lives, karma, and the complex interactions of mind and matter, the author details her transformation from diehard materialist to open-minded spiritual seeker. She reveals her conversations about spirituality and anomalous occurrences with scientific colleagues as well as high-level experts and government officials who shared data on extremely sophisticated experiments that provided proof for the existence of psi phenomena. She discovered that psi research has been conducted on a grand scale for more than a century--by hundreds of scientists with hundreds of thousands of participants--and that there exists substantial evidence for the reality of psi. She examines meta-analysis of these experiments, such as that of the Ganzfield tests, which showed odds against chance of 12 billion to 1--throwing our current scientific materialist paradigm into question. Providing a deep dive into the literature of psychology, quantum physics, neuroscience, philosophy, and esoteric texts, Sobhani also explores the relationship between psi phenomena, the transcendence of space and time, and spirituality. Culminating with the author’s serious reckoning with one of the foundational principles of neuroscience--scientific materialism--this illuminating book shows that the mysteries of human experience go far beyond what the present scientific paradigm can comprehend. Synopsis of the book by Mona Sobhani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 On 14/06/2022 at 06:32, fruitvilla said: OK there's a lot to unpack here ... but as Limpid succinctly summarized: we exist in the remnants of the big bang. As you well know I can't take back to the big bang no more than you can go back five minutes. So you are just playing rhetorical games here as far as I am concerned. The difference between science and whatever it is you are doing is that science can propose something and we might be able to disprove it. Science may find corroborating evidence to support a position or a proposal, but it will never prove it true. As yet you have not described what you are arguing for ... so I am still waiting. I am not really interested in arguing with you, I am just expressing myself and airing where I am inclined from my limited point of view, any discussion that ensues I am open to and welcome so long as it is done in a way that I can tolerate. Insinuating that my sense of spirituality is drug induced wasn't really my idea of that. Though I understand people will come to view any situation through the lens that they have at any given time, and I am not going to take things personally so as to derail any chance at a fair and honest dialogue and evaluation of what's being spoken about. I did feel some vibes that I didn't appreciate so forgive my reluctance to engage, if you can afford me that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 17 minutes ago, A'Villan said: I am not really interested in arguing with you If by argument you mean quarrel, I agree. If you mean discuss then that is up to you. Drugs are one aspect of induced states of spirituality. As pointed out in the discussion at large, there are other routes that that induce chemical spirituality. Chemistry (physics) is the substrate for consciousness, thought and feelings. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, fruitvilla said: If by argument you mean quarrel, I agree. If you mean discuss then that is up to you. Drugs are one aspect of induced states of spirituality. As pointed out in the discussion at large, there are other routes that that induce chemical spirituality. Chemistry (physics) is the substrate for consciousness, thought and feelings. I am open to discussion and would even say that's something I'd like. I can understand presumptions can be made when trying to understand and discern what's at play, however I can't give my word that will be limitless or that my enthusiasm towards any discussion can't be scuppered by misconceptions or misunderstandings. I am reconciled to there being a point where the discussion runs its course due to a difference of angle and viewpoints. Until then though I'm all about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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