blandy Posted November 17, 2015 Moderator Share Posted November 17, 2015 1 minute ago, omariqy said: I am not sure what people would expect in a description of hell Perhaps more of a nod to 24 hour shopping channels, traffic jams and Primark FM.? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 13 minutes ago, mjmooney said: So in other words, the whole is an inconsistent jumble of internal self-contradiction, just like the Bible? Who'da thought it, eh? I read (on the internets) if there's a contradiction the later verse supersedes the earlier verse. The peaceful verses come before the more violent ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 1 minute ago, omariqy said: As an example Quran 22:19 - 'These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord), for them will be cut out a garment of Fire, over their heads will be poured out boiling water." Bit harsh for a thought crime don't ya think.? This ever loving and merciful deity of yours seems like a schizophrenic prick in the most part . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 29 minutes ago, Ikantcpell said: It dosent make it any better does it ? No definitely not, the problem is that the likes of ISIS follow the Salfist and Wahabbist view of Islam and take that list of things you posted as being true and right. I assume a huge majority of Muslims think it's a load of bollocks as most Christians think the violent, ancient stuff in the bible is bollocks. The problem is they've somehow managed to convince enough people to form an army, which I just can't understand. I can't think how anyone in their right mind having blind faith and trusting ancient texts, which is why I hope over 100 years we could educate religion out of people altogether if we put enough money and will-power into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted November 17, 2015 Author VT Supporter Share Posted November 17, 2015 29 minutes ago, Ikantcpell said: It dosent make it any better does it ? No definitely not, the problem is that the likes of ISIS follow the Salfist and Wahabbist view of Islam and take that list of things you posted as being true and right. I assume a huge majority of Muslims think it's a load of bollocks as most Christians think the violent, ancient stuff in the bible is bollocks. The problem is they've somehow managed to convince enough people to form an army, which I just can't understand. I can't think how anyone in their right mind having blind faith and trusting ancient texts, which is why I hope over 100 years we could educate religion out of people altogether if we put enough money and will-power into it. I'll wager that a huge majority of Muslims (even in the west) do NOT think it's a load of bollocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) But if as time goes on people are having to adjust their interpretation of these texts then they cannot be the infallible word of their god as changes in society and way of living supersede God's word. Therefore following a religion that is adjustable due to external factors seems pointless if God is meant to be almighty etc. I have really struggled to articulate that but at least I know what I mean Edited November 17, 2015 by Wainy316 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 44 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said: we could educate religion out of people altogether if we put enough money and will-power into it. Well, that's The West out then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG_Villa_Fan Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Wainy316 said: But if as time goes on people are having to adjust their interpretation of these texts then they cannot be the infallible word of their god as changes in society and way of living supersede God's word. Therefore following a religion that is adjustable due to external factors seems pointless if God is meant to be almighty etc. I have really struggled to articulate that but at least I know what I mean Well even the catholic church eventually admitted that the earth is round and the heliocentric model correct - you can do and say all kinds of contradicting bullshit to people who believe in fairy tales and it won't even register to the lot of them. Religion is a fantastic, genious tool. Edited November 17, 2015 by BG_Villa_Fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHV Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 2 hours ago, Ikantcpell said: Is this just bullshit, or are these things actually in the quran? I havent read it, but maybe someone on here has? I have read it, and it doesn't say that. The verses are much bigger than one liners, at a push if you were that way inclined and hated the west I suppose you could skew what is actually written and come out with this crap although these lines really are wide of the mark. It is all based upon interpritation, the problem when reading an english translation is that they can vary. You would have to be fairly hardline and a bit twisted to transate the verses into those lines though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Brumerican Posted November 17, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted November 17, 2015 It's the "interpretation" defense that really should set more alarm bells ringing . If your God can create an entire Universe on a whim, then a clear, precise instruction manual should be a piece of piss . You shouldn't need to be a theological scholar just to understand what your Holy texts are teaching you . 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 On 11/15/2015, 1:12:32, blandy said: I used to think that, sort of. But I've recently found it to be very wrong. I worked with an American man recently. He was extremely clever, seriously a world leading expert in his field and a really nice bloke. Analytical, intelligent, logical and so on. I could talk with him about almost any subject and I had no idea that he held any religious views until one night in the bar I let slip something along the lines of the content of that picture and that I didn't get how anyone in the field of science could believe in a supernatural invisible being controlling our lives, due to the complete absence of any evidence whatsoever to support such a belief. I fully expected him to agree. He didn't. He said he was religious. I thought he was kidding me. But no. We (I wasn't the only other person in the conversation with him) kind of said "why...er...how can you believe in something for which there's no evidence...etc" and this man, probably one of the most reasoned and reasoning people I've ever met kind of went over his beliefs, leaving us nonplussed, still. Then he went and got a round in, and the next topic of conversation moved on from it. He is a funny, generous and clever bloke and I guess that what I learnt from it, is it's quite wrong to assume, as I perhaps lazily did, that religious belief at least in part comes from a lack of rigour in thinking and reasoning. It obviously doesn't. He is evidence of that. And there will be many many more like him. I have the same trouble with people who believe in love despite their lifetime's experience, which has taught them that all affection and friendship is conditional, and after several failed marriages, they will describe their ex-wives as mercenary and their children as indifferent to them, they poor scorn on religious believers and yet they still insist that they believe in something which they call love. Some things people just refuse to let go and I don't blame them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Just a another one for you: Quran 47:4 'Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.' Basically in battle smite at their necks, at length after you have captured them it is either generosity or ransom. Now I am not going to get into argument about religion on here right now. I just wanted to show how wrong that picture was. Yes majority of muslims will believe the quran 100%. The hadith is where you will get differences. Also not Salafis (Wahabis included) will be violent but they will be a lot more extreme in their views and it is true to say that the violent element comes from this section of Muslims. I've seen that picture plenty of times before, including being shared by the likes of Richard Dawkins and Tommy Robinson. The Quran isn't difficult to interpret if you take the time to understand it. As far as I can see there are no contradictions in there. The issue comes when some chapters are direct commands to the prophet and the Muslim people at the time and people use this as a direct commandments to be used in the present. It isn't difficult to understand the difference between the two. However, you have to factor in the fact that the majority of those being 'brainwashed' probably don't know how to read the Quran in Arabic and probably have not read a valid English translation. Albeit there is no English translation of the Quran that can ever truly replicate the meaning of some words or tone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 11 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: I have the same trouble with people who believe in love despite their lifetime's experience, which has taught them that all affection and friendship is conditional, and after several failed marriages, they will describe their ex-wives as mercenary and their children as indifferent to them, they poor scorn on religious believers and yet they still insist that they believe in something which they call love. Some things people just refuse to let go and I don't blame them. I love curry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 4 minutes ago, omariqy said: Just a another one for you: Quran 47:4 'Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.' Basically in battle smite at their necks, at length after you have captured them it is either generosity or ransom. Now I am not going to get into argument about religion on here right now. I just wanted to show how wrong that picture was. Yes majority of muslims will believe the quran 100%. The hadith is where you will get differences. Also not Salafis (Wahabis included) will be violent but they will be a lot more extreme in their views and it is true to say that the violent element comes from this section of Muslims. I've seen that picture plenty of times before, including being shared by the likes of Richard Dawkins and Tommy Robinson. The Quran isn't difficult to interpret if you take the time to understand it. As far as I can see there are no contradictions in there. The issue comes when some chapters are direct commands to the prophet and the Muslim people at the time and people use this as a direct commandments to be used in the present. It isn't difficult to understand the difference between the two. However, you have to factor in the fact that the majority of those being 'brainwashed' probably don't know how to read the Quran in Arabic and probably have not read a valid English translation. Albeit there is no English translation of the Quran that can ever truly replicate the meaning of some words or tone. Thou shall not kill. Spoken directly to Moses by Allah I believe , long before Muhammad was on the scene. So why does Allah instruct Muhammad to then go on murdering rampages throughout the region .? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 6 minutes ago, Brumerican said: Thou shall not kill. Spoken directly to Moses by Allah I believe , long before Muhammad was on the scene. So why does Allah instruct Muhammad to then go on murdering rampages throughout the region .? Firstly, you are looking for contradictions in two separate books. The commandments, although mentioned, are not detailed in the Quran. In terms of that command, there is instances of that in the Quran also. 'And do not take any human beings life- that God willed to be sacred- other than in (the pursuit of) justice'. In terms of murdering rampages, on record he only killed one person - in battle. In terms of during his time then yes people were killed but in battle or as corporal punishment (for treason or rape). Whether you agree with the latter or not, I am not sure murdering rampages is the right phrase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Murdering rampages was me being polite . Muhammmad was implicit in the murder, rape , abduction , torture and persecution of countless humans. Including children . I am pretty sure in one particular instance that when Muhammad heard the news that his men had killed innocent children , his reply was along the lines of "tough shit , they're the enemy" And you guys have the audacity to say "pbuh" about this reprehensible piece of shit and the egotistical clearing in the woods of a God who instructed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 7 minutes ago, Brumerican said: Murdering rampages was me being polite . Muhammmad was implicit in the murder, rape , abduction , torture and persecution of countless humans. Including children . I am pretty sure in one particular instance that when Muhammad heard the news that his men had killed innocent children , his reply was along the lines of "tough shit , they're the enemy" And you guys have the audacity to say "pbuh" about this reprehensible piece of shit and the egotistical clearing in the woods of a God who instructed him. Can I see the evidence of this please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 48 minutes ago, omariqy said: Just a another one for you: Quran 47:4 'Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.' Basically in battle smite at their necks, at length after you have captured them it is either generosity or ransom. Now I am not going to get into argument about religion on here right now. I just wanted to show how wrong that picture was. Yes majority of muslims will believe the quran 100%. The hadith is where you will get differences. Also not Salafis (Wahabis included) will be violent but they will be a lot more extreme in their views and it is true to say that the violent element comes from this section of Muslims. I've seen that picture plenty of times before, including being shared by the likes of Richard Dawkins and Tommy Robinson. The Quran isn't difficult to interpret if you take the time to understand it. As far as I can see there are no contradictions in there. The issue comes when some chapters are direct commands to the prophet and the Muslim people at the time and people use this as a direct commandments to be used in the present. It isn't difficult to understand the difference between the two. However, you have to factor in the fact that the majority of those being 'brainwashed' probably don't know how to read the Quran in Arabic and probably have not read a valid English translation. Albeit there is no English translation of the Quran that can ever truly replicate the meaning of some words or tone. I always find it interesting that ISIS and your typical detractors of Islam (like in that picture, what a load of bollocks) usually have the same interpretation of Islam. It's easy to cherry pick one liners to paint a picture, ignoring all textual and historical context. Says more about the person quoting than it does about the text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 9 minutes ago, omariqy said: Can I see the evidence of this please? Since when did you start requiring evidence to believe in something ? If only you applied that line of thought in other areas . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 9 minutes ago, Brumerican said: Since when did you start requiring evidence to believe in something ? If only you applied that line of thought in other areas . Don't be mean to Omariqy, he's one of the goodies Debate, don't hate. (I just made that up) (Donnie, this one's for you). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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