Dr_Pangloss Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 5 minutes ago, PaulC said: Does that make him better though. He never won the champions league at a massive club like Real Madrid. His did win one la liga title but his final season there was poor. Yes it does because the achievement of winning the Champions League with a fairly 'small' club like Porto with a tiny budget trumps anything Guardiola will ever do in football. Also on the topic of big clubs you could argue that Guardiola at most had Bayern standing still and certainly didn't do the job Heynckes did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 Ok both are on even footing now with the squads they have. Lets see who the better manager is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted October 6, 2017 Moderator Share Posted October 6, 2017 12 minutes ago, PaulC said: Ok both are on even footing now with the squads they have. Lets see who the better manager is! But Mourinho has already brought United further from where they were when he started. That we're even discussing this as a level playing field is testament to how he can turn a side around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted October 6, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted October 6, 2017 44 minutes ago, BOF said: But Mourinho has already brought United further from where they were when he started. That we're even discussing this as a level playing field is testament to how he can turn a side around. And spent £300m+ doing. So I'm not sure if that counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted October 6, 2017 Moderator Share Posted October 6, 2017 1 minute ago, Stevo985 said: And spent £300m+ doing. So I'm not sure if that counts. Wait. So the money they spend does now get taken into account when assessing them? Which set of guidelines are we judging these managers by? And are they being judged by the same criteria as each other? Or does Guardiola get to spend what he wants and not be judged on it because that's just his way, but everyone else is criticised for trying to compete? The fact as I see it is that Mourinho has made more progress at United on less money in less time than Guardiola has, and he has also done more over his career and in more trying circumstances. We agree that Pep is very good at what he does, but let's not over egg it. If we're going to compare him to more rounded and accomplished managers top trumps style then he's going to be found sorely wanting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted October 6, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted October 6, 2017 Just now, BOF said: Wait. So the money they spend does now get taken into account when assessing them? Which set of guidelines are we judging these managers by? And are they being judged by the same criteria as each other? Or does Guardiola get to spend what he wants and not be judged on it because that's just his way, but everyone else is criticised for trying to compete? I was being sarcastic... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted October 6, 2017 Moderator Share Posted October 6, 2017 Just now, Stevo985 said: I was being sarcastic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 5 hours ago, BOF said: But Mourinho has already brought United further from where they were when he started. That we're even discussing this as a level playing field is testament to how he can turn a side around. I'm talking about squads that's all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted October 6, 2017 Moderator Share Posted October 6, 2017 8 minutes ago, PaulC said: I'm talking about squads that's all So you want to see who the better manager is, by effectively cleaning the slate and ignoring the difference between what both have had to do to even get to this point, because they've now got even footing. I'd say that's a massively flawed approach. Management isn't just about sailing the ship. It's about getting it seaworthy in the first place. JMHO. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 On 10/4/2017 at 22:16, PaulC said: As Brian Clough once said I want to win but win it better. No doubt Pep could do what Jose does and win more trophies but Pep wants to do by playing attractive football. That did Clough well at Leeds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 On 10/4/2017 at 10:12, Stevo985 said: He should just turn down the money and use what he already has. He attempted that last season with Sagna, Clichy and Kolarov.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 It's a very interesting subplot this season in Manchester. Is there any way Pep can be deemed a success at City without winning the league title? Of course if he wins the champions league but Man. City to me have never seemed comfortable as a club in that competition and obviously the league is much easier to win given the lack of competition. Context of that of course is it denies Mourinho the league. Mourinho is the sort given how he provokes other managers and football people that needs to keep winning titles. He got out of jail last season with the cups. If Man. United don't win the league then it's five years without a league title so they'd start worrying they're turning into Liverpool with a long title drought. Way football is nowadays neither will get as long as Fergie did to get things right. What's certain is one will miss out and then the fun will begin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 On 10/4/2017 at 22:16, PaulC said: As Brian Clough once said I want to win but win it better. No doubt Pep could do what Jose does and win more trophies but Pep wants to do by playing attractive football. Man. United haven't been that bad to watch this season. They're smashed 4-5 teams by 4 goals. Of course Mourinho is pragmatic in big games particularly away from home. Pep might have to be at some stage this season aswell to get over the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 2 hours ago, BOF said: So you want to see who the better manager is, by effectively cleaning the slate and ignoring the difference between what both have had to do to even get to this point, because they've now got even footing. I'd say that's a massively flawed approach. Management isn't just about sailing the ship. It's about getting it seaworthy in the first place. JMHO. I'd say Man U underperformed last year and got lucky with the Europa league which they nearly went out of against Celta Vigo. He was fortunate to inherit some fantastic young talent and be able to go out and buy Pogba and Lukaku. so don't think much difference to what Pep had at Man City Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted October 6, 2017 Moderator Share Posted October 6, 2017 3 hours ago, VillaChris said: He attempted that last season with Sagna, Clichy and Kolarov.... Well other than the £222m he spent... apart from that yeah he made do with what he had... what a trooper... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted October 6, 2017 Author Share Posted October 6, 2017 10 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: Well other than the £222m he spent... apart from that yeah he made do with what he had... what a trooper... £222m plus a squad with world class players he inherited its a tough life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 10 hours ago, PaulC said: Ok both are on even footing now with the squads they have. Lets see who the better manager is! That question has already been answered a long time ago, it's Mourinho. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 5 hours ago, VillaChris said: It's a very interesting subplot this season in Manchester. Is there any way Pep can be deemed a success at City without winning the league title? Of course if he wins the champions league but Man. City to me have never seemed comfortable as a club in that competition and obviously the league is much easier to win given the lack of competition. Context of that of course is it denies Mourinho the league. Mourinho is the sort given how he provokes other managers and football people that needs to keep winning titles. He got out of jail last season with the cups. If Man. United don't win the league then it's five years without a league title so they'd start worrying they're turning into Liverpool with a long title drought. Way football is nowadays neither will get as long as Fergie did to get things right. What's certain is one will miss out and then the fun will begin. What about if one wins the league and the other the champions league. I think the champions league for City is the most important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 Don't see City winning it, just too many good teams in the knock outs. Whereas premier league they just have to outlast Man. United. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Who Chris.? Bayern nope. Real Madrid, Barcelona and PSG are the only teams they have to worry about outside England. They have a great chance imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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