Kingfisher Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 We have a terrible unrepresentative democracy and a government that funds terrorism. The Scottish dislike the English, the English dislike the Scottish. Some Scot's want to break away and become a sovereign nation, some don't. Some English want the Scots to go some don't. The British government are for now at least holding the fragile union together. What a mess, why can't we all just get on? I propose the Tony Blair solution to these problems. It's obvious when you think about it. We need to be invaded and occupied by a foreign country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Apologies if this has been covered, Lets say the Scottish get independence, does that mean, MP's such as Danny Alexander if they retain their seat in 2015 will not have a place in the UK Parliament? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eames Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Apologies if this has been covered, Lets say the Scottish get independence, does that mean, MP's such as Danny Alexander if they retain their seat in 2015 will not have a place in the UK Parliament? Yes. If the Scots vote for independance there will be no Scottish MPs at Westminster in 2015. It basically **** the Labour party for ever. Whether they will get their shit together to enact the necessary legislative changes for 2015 or not is a different question but long term yes. They're outta there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post tonyh29 Posted June 16, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted June 16, 2014 The Scottish dislike the English, the English dislike the Scottish. can only assume you are living in the 13 /14th Century , say hello to William Wallace for me when you see him I've never met a Scotsman that has cared that I'm English and ditto for me meeting any Scots , for sure if we were playing at Hampden there may be a bit of passion and intensity involved but nothing akin to dislike 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 I don't think it will be quietly swept under the carpet if they lose (which they probably will). It'll be interesting to see what comes out of it either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted June 16, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted June 16, 2014 This whole business sums up why I hate the idea of referenda on important issues. The whole thing is in danger of being decided by ill-informed and prejudiced emotive voting (as would an EU in/out referendum). The serious economic and constitutional issues are just going to be ignored in the noise of all the William Wallace, Scots wha-hey, Mel Gibson nonsense. We elect politicians to handle this sort of thing. I don't trust the average Twitter and Facebook 'informed' punter to make these sort of decisions. It's not democracy, it's X-Factor politics, and it will come back to haunt us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Apologies if this has been covered, Lets say the Scottish get independence, does that mean, MP's such as Danny Alexander if they retain their seat in 2015 will not have a place in the UK Parliament? Yes. If the Scots vote for independance there will be no Scottish MPs at Westminster in 2015. It basically **** the Labour party for ever. Whether they will get their shit together to enact the necessary legislative changes for 2015 or not is a different question but long term yes. They're outta there. MP's elected to Westminster for Scottish constituencies in the 2015 general election will retain those seats until the actual date of independence in 2017. That raises the rather awkward possibility of MP's for Scotland in Westminster potentially negotiating with the terms of separation with their opposite numbers in the Scottish Parliament on behalf of voters in the rest of the UK. Not sure that will work out too well if it comes to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 This whole business sums up why I hate the idea of referenda on important issues. The whole thing is in danger of being decided by ill-informed and prejudiced emotive voting (as would an EU in/out referendum). The serious economic and constitutional issues are just going to be ignored in the noise of all the William Wallace, Scots wha-hey, Mel Gibson nonsense. We elect politicians to handle this sort of thing. I don't trust the average Twitter and Facebook 'informed' punter to make these sort of decisions. It's not democracy, it's X-Factor politics, and it will come back to haunt us. yes agreed There is every chance that some 'major' event a day before the vote could jolt people into a reactive emotional decision that we'll all have to live with for a very long time. 36 hours before the election and somebody famously Scottish dies or a tape emerges of Cameron making haggis jokes or that Potter woman turns out to be a spy or whatever and suddenly there's lots of ill thought out emotional voting. Ditto any euro in/out election. Will people pour over the facts and the trade figures and the projected impact on jobs and wages? Or will they decide Farage outwitted Clegg in a debate on telly where somebody made a funny quip about German secretaries and Polish dancers? Benign dictatorship headed by me is the only sensible way forward. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 The Scottish dislike the English, the English dislike the Scottish. I've never met a Scotsman that has cared that I'm English and ditto for me meeting any Scots. You're not likely to hang in the places where you'd meet such people. They're a small minded minority, but they're there. Go into the sticks where they speak Doric and you will find them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 This whole business sums up why I hate the idea of referenda on important issues. The whole thing is in danger of being decided by ill-informed and prejudiced emotive voting (as would an EU in/out referendum). The serious economic and constitutional issues are just going to be ignored in the noise of all the William Wallace, Scots wha-hey, Mel Gibson nonsense. We elect politicians to handle this sort of thing. I don't trust the average Twitter and Facebook 'informed' punter to make these sort of decisions. It's not democracy, it's X-Factor politics, and it will come back to haunt us. yeah I agree with that however I still think we need a balanced debate on the EU as the " for "camping shouting "little Englander" isn't really sufficient justification to stay in ..in my opinion Scotland , I can't see any good reasons for them being out of the Union ..Europe I can see plenty of good reasons for being out (and some good reasons for being In , for that matter) Regarding your last sentence , again I sort of agree , BUT the problem with letting politicians decide , is that history has taught us they only vote for their own interests rather than "our" interests 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 16, 2014 Moderator Share Posted June 16, 2014 This whole business sums up why I hate the idea of referenda on important issues. The whole thing is in danger of being decided by ill-informed and prejudiced emotive voting (as would an EU in/out referendum). The serious economic and constitutional issues are just going to be ignored in the noise of all the William Wallace, Scots wha-hey, Mel Gibson nonsense. We elect politicians to handle this sort of thing. I don't trust the average Twitter and Facebook 'informed' punter to make these sort of decisions. It's not democracy, it's X-Factor politics, and it will come back to haunt us.I don't really agree with the conclusion, though I understand the thinking.I like the idea of such issues not being decided by a (relative) few party MPs adhering to the whip and voting based on (perhaps) better knowledge and information than we have. If it were a free vote, with absolutely no party influence or arm twisting, then still I'd prefer a referendum.At any given point in time, parties will have their collective mindset in the same way that the general public do.In essence I prefer the wisdom of 4 million collectively, over the wisdom of 200 MPs.And that's before the point about letting people have more say in democracy and how their society and country is run is even mentioned. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted June 16, 2014 Moderator Share Posted June 16, 2014 I agree with Blandy, it isn't as if those elected to power actually represent the views of the population in any case or can be trusted to vote without undue outside influence or personal financial gain. I do though following the outcome of the vote look forward to us having our vote on if we let them stay though should that be what they decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 The Scottish dislike the English, the English dislike the Scottish. I've never met a Scotsman that has cared that I'm English and ditto for me meeting any Scots. You're not likely to hang in the places where you'd meet such people. They're a small minded minority, but they're there. Go into the sticks where they speak Doric and you will find them. I've been to a far chunk of Scotland , not just Glasgow and Edinburgh .. heck I've even seen Arbroath & Inverness play at home .. even been to John O'Groats ,Oban , some of the outer Islands .. True I'm not really sure where these Doric hang out but it would suggest they live in underground burrows or something .. I will grant you that when I stood on top of a wall singing Good Save the Queen at the top of my voice inside Parkhead during the Villa friendly back in1986 , there were a few Scots that wished me harm , but that was the exception rather than the norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfisher Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 The Scottish dislike the English, the English dislike the Scottish. can only assume you are living in the 13 /14th Century , say hello to William Wallace for me when you see him I've never met a Scotsman that has cared that I'm English and ditto for me meeting any Scots , for sure if we were playing at Hampden there may be a bit of passion and intensity involved but nothing akin to dislikeI agree, it was mostly tongue in cheek. This isn't about nationalism IMO, it's about dissatisfaction with a political system they don't feel represents them in Scotland. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 The Scottish dislike the English, the English dislike the Scottish. can only assume you are living in the 13 /14th Century , say hello to William Wallace for me when you see him I've never met a Scotsman that has cared that I'm English and ditto for me meeting any Scots , for sure if we were playing at Hampden there may be a bit of passion and intensity involved but nothing akin to dislike I agree, it was mostly tongue in cheek. This isn't about nationalism IMO, it's about dissatisfaction with a political system they don't feel represents them in Scotland. ah my bad ...... does the solution involve the green party by chance 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) So I posed a teaser to my Glaswegian neighbour and his mates, all Celtic FC supporters and pro-Scots independence. Would they like an independent Scotland, or the status quo to remain but with the Old Firm teams moved into the Premier League. To a man, they wanted their team in the Premier League ahead of Scots independence. Perhaps this could be a strategy for the Better Campaign to utilise to capture the all-important Glasgow vote? Edited June 16, 2014 by Corcaigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfisher Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 The Scottish dislike the English, the English dislike the Scottish. can only assume you are living in the 13 /14th Century , say hello to William Wallace for me when you see him I've never met a Scotsman that has cared that I'm English and ditto for me meeting any Scots , for sure if we were playing at Hampden there may be a bit of passion and intensity involved but nothing akin to dislike I agree, it was mostly tongue in cheek. This isn't about nationalism IMO, it's about dissatisfaction with a political system they don't feel represents them in Scotland. ah my bad ...... does the solution involve the green party by chance It involves a proportional representation voting system - coincidentally, offered by the Greens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 16, 2014 Moderator Share Posted June 16, 2014 Why has no-one yet asked the question…You want independence but want to be in the EU, how is that possible? And how do you cope with the hypocrisy of that?Mind you it'd typical of those politicians involved in the No campaign not to have thought of it yet, the dunb twunts that they are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Why has no-one yet asked the question… You want independence but want to be in the EU, how is that possible? And how do you cope with the hypocrisy of that? Mind you it'd typical of those politicians involved in the No campaign not to have thought of it yet, the dunb twunts that they are I've been thinking this for ages. It's a bit odd how the SNP can be so vehemently anti-Westminster but so enthusiastically pro-EU. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Why has no-one yet asked the question… You want independence but want to be in the EU, how is that possible? And how do you cope with the hypocrisy of that? Mind you it'd typical of those politicians involved in the No campaign not to have thought of it yet, the dunb twunts that they are Could you equally ask why so many people and politicians think we should get out of europe to be our own masters, but think Scotland is better off staying as an economically remote, numerically small, politically different, geographically distant part of the UK, governed from London? Neither side has a claim on total logic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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