The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[donnie]

So it's okay for them to burn churches and attack Christians, but god forbid anyone saying anything about their religion.

[CrackpotForeigner]

I'm sure it doesn't help that food prices in the region are spiralling high thanks to our ill-concieved dabble in bio-fuels.

This. Making biofuels out of food is pure insanity. Another little something to thank George W Bush for. Also a great way to make sure as much as possible of the Amazon rainforest gets cleared for agriculture.

[peterms]

this latest exercise in Islamic bed wetting is due to nothing more than a couple of Egyptian Americans making a crappy film and banging it on youtube. Not bombing or killing, just making a crappy video.

I think a far more credible explanation is offered here.

[legov]

this latest exercise in Islamic bed wetting is due to nothing more than a couple of Egyptian Americans making a crappy film and banging it on youtube. Not bombing or killing, just making a crappy video.

I think a far more credible explanation is offered here.

Excellent read, though I detected some disdain on her part when she mentioned Dawkins's name.

Thanks anyway.

[chrisp65]

this latest exercise in Islamic bed wetting is due to nothing more than a couple of Egyptian Americans making a crappy film and banging it on youtube. Not bombing or killing, just making a crappy video.

I think a far more credible explanation is offered here.

good find

good read

...the focus on American symbols – embassies, American ‎schools – even KFC – suggests the roots of popular anger is not hurt religious pride. These ‎symbols of America were not the unwitting target of frustration over a film – rather the film has ‎provided an unwitting focal point for massive and widespread anger at US foreign policy in the ‎region.

[peterms]

Here's another good article on the issue.

[Awol]

this latest exercise in Islamic bed wetting is due to nothing more than a couple of Egyptian Americans making a crappy film and banging it on youtube. Not bombing or killing, just making a crappy video.

I think a far more credible explanation is offered here.

You may think that the author provides a more credible analysis (her previous post is dripping about how us bloody whitey's should still be embracing the colonial guilt of our grandparents - isn't it funny how no one says that to young Germans these days??), but having also read the post it seems like another long and whiny justification for mindless, primitive violence and massively plays down the religious driver behind the protests. In other words "blame America, they brought it one themselves!" Of course, very many folks of European identity and orientation suck that message up like manna from heaven. It's certainly easier than considering the alternative which wouldn't sit too comfortably with some peoples' world view.

I've been talking to Muslim guys today (including my good friend and business partner) who maintain the North Africans, Yemeni's and others out committing violent acts are better Muslims than the Gulf Arabs, because they went out and fought for the honour of the Prophet. This wave of violence is inspired primarily by religion and the veneration of their Prophet Mohammed, not the Iraq war, Palestine or fast food chains.

As convenient as it would be to scream "**** Americans!" that stance absolves 10,000's of adults for behaving like immature, emotional and irrational children.

[Awol]

Here's another good article on the issue.

We have different definitions of "good", obviously.

....the widely hated, child-killing drone campaign...

Sometimes I wonder why I stopped reading the Guardian, then people link to utter shite like the article above and I remember again - it's mostly one eyed bollocks.

[maqroll]

[peterms]

You may think that the author provides a more credible analysis (her previous post is dripping about how us bloody whitey's should still be embracing the colonial guilt of our grandparents - isn't it funny how no one says that to young Germans these days??), but having also read the post it seems like another long and whiny justification for mindless, primitive violence and massively plays down the religious driver behind the protests. In other words "blame America, they brought it one themselves!" Of course, very many folks of European identity and orientation suck that message up like manna from heaven. It's certainly easier than considering the alternative which wouldn't sit too comfortably with some peoples' world view.

I've been talking to Muslim guys today (including my good friend and business partner) who maintain the North Africans, Yemeni's and others out committing violent acts are better Muslims than the Gulf Arabs, because they went out and fought for the honour of the Prophet. This wave of violence is inspired primarily by religion and the veneration of their Prophet Mohammed, not the Iraq war, Palestine or fast food chains.

As convenient as it would be to scream "**** Americans!" that stance absolves 10,000's of adults for behaving like immature, emotional and irrational children.

I know that you understand full well the difference between explaining something, and justifying it. But your post doesn't reflect that understanding.

I'm equally sure that you understand the difference between an issue which precipitates something, and underlying issues which make that reaction possible or even likely.

To pretend that this is just about religious motivation is to deny your own understanding of those things. Some people are foolish enough not to understand this; but you're not.

Why are so many people so ready to display hatred of the USA in particular, and to a lesser extent those countries which are seen as their obedient accomplices? It's not because of an appallingly made video, which I imagine a great many of those involved in the demonstrations haven't even seen.

It's also a bit odd how "mindless, primitive violence" seems to be so much worse than knowing, sophisticated violence carried out on a far, far larger scale. Drones, and cluster bombs, and rendition for torture, and the rest. Why is that, exactly?

[Awol]

To pretend that this is just about religious motivation is to deny your own understanding of those things. Some people are foolish enough not to understand this; but you're not.

Peter, I'm not pretending anything. This has been pretty much the only topic of conversation with the locals (almost my entire work and social circle) since it kicked off. What is abundantly clear to me is that it really is the religious aspect above all else that has motivated the unchecked fury we've seen around the Muslim world. It's a difficult psychology for us to understand, but we really need to understand. One quote from coffee earlier today that struck home was this: "Life is cheap in the Arab world, those who die are with God and in a better place. But don't under any circumstances insult the Prophet. He is the most perfect example of a human being and Muslims will never accept it".

I'm not trying to pull a fast one or paint a false picture. It really is about the religious insult above all else and there is absolutely no reasoning with it - and believe me I've been trying to.

[Brumerican]

Just nuke the middle east and turn it to glass. It will make looking for oil a whole lot easier too as you can just look down .

(Thank you Viz)

[peterms]

To pretend that this is just about religious motivation is to deny your own understanding of those things. Some people are foolish enough not to understand this; but you're not.

Peter, I'm not pretending anything. This has been pretty much the only topic of conversation with the locals (almost my entire work and social circle) since it kicked off. What is abundantly clear to me is that it really is the religious aspect above all else that has motivated the unchecked fury we've seen around the Muslim world. It's a difficult psychology for us to understand, but we really need to understand. One quote from coffee earlier today that struck home was this: "Life is cheap in the Arab world, those who die are with God and in a better place. But don't under any circumstances insult the Prophet. He is the most perfect example of a human being and Muslims will never accept it".

I'm not trying to pull a fast one or paint a false picture. It really is about the religious insult above all else and there is absolutely no reasoning with it - and believe me I've been trying to.

I'm reminded of a couple of cases here and in the US in the last couple of days. They aren't equivalent, because in these, the state has been in a position to intervene and control the blasphemers, and mete out the punishment it thinks fitting for offending what it sees as the prevailing moral sentiment.

Our example involved a Facebook rant.

The US example could attract a maximum of 23 years in prison, for publicising criminal acts at Abu Ghraib and showing clips of US soldiers being blown up.

All societies have things which they feel offend against the prevailing sentiment. To think that because our state manages the suppression and punishment of such things more effectively we must be "more tolerant" is misguided. We may be more tolerant in some ways, but we also stamp down on some kinds of dissent, and the US' sweeping control over the internet, reaching out to punish people who have never set foot in the US but who dare express views of which the US disapproves, is especially extreme.

Muslim opinion, like non-Muslim opinion, ranges from thoughtful and considered, to ranting psychopathic drivel. Many of the more thoughtful commentators are currently discussing how US actions and those of other countries have created a fertile soil for people to feel angry and vengeful at yet another perceived slight.

The thing that strikes home to me is that they are saying that for some people, maybe not those you mix with, who probably have more income, security, and ways of expressing self-esteem than many others, insulting their religion and their prophet strikes at just about the only source of dignity they have left:

Mohamed is a man whose ‎status in the eyes of many Muslims, cannot be overstated. When your country has been bombed, ‎you’ve lost friends and family, possibly your livelihood and home, dignity is pretty much all you ‎have left.‎

As for people you just can't reason with, well we're hardly short of those ourselves, are we?

[PompeyVillan]

Even given the context, it's impossible to justify the extremity of these events.

[chrisp65]

Even given the context, it's impossible to justify the extremity of these events.

I'm not sure they can be justified, they can't, it's idiotic. But they can be viewed differently from the us vs them one side must win rabid views that are peddled from both sides of the divide by people who think there is advantage to be had from hating half the world.

[peterms]

Even given the context, it's impossible to justify the extremity of these events.

But do you mean the Al-Quaeda murder of 4 US diplomats and 10 Libyan guards (which I haven't seen anyone justifying), or the wider protests (which I have seen people explaining)? They are not at all the same thing, though most news media present them as indistinguishable.

I see the US have now questioned the film-maker, but released him without charge. Good job he didn't include any footage of Abu Ghraib, or he'd certainly be facing charges.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

What could they charge him with? It isn't illegal to be an idiot.

[bickster]

What could they charge him with? It isn't illegal to be an idiot.

If only it was, then the rest of the world wouldn't have had to suffer the last few Republican presidents

[peterms]

What could they charge him with? It isn't illegal to be an idiot.

Under US law? I have no idea. The very concept of US law seems a fast-moving shadow. It seems they can find charges when it suits them, or else find ways of confining and torturing people offshore if that's more convenient.

In this country, I should think that legislation on hate crimes, inciting hatred etc would fit, if you think that prosecution is the way to go; personally, I don't.

[A.J.Rimmer]

this latest exercise in Islamic bed wetting is due to nothing more than a couple of Egyptian Americans making a crappy film and banging it on youtube. Not bombing or killing, just making a crappy video.

I think a far more credible explanation is offered here.

good find

good read

...the focus on American symbols – embassies, American ‎schools – even KFC – suggests the roots of popular anger is not hurt religious pride. These ‎symbols of America were not the unwitting target of frustration over a film – rather the film has ‎provided an unwitting focal point for massive and widespread anger at US foreign policy in the ‎region.

I've taken the trouble to read every word of this article... and it is absolute rubbish. I will tell you why:

It contains not one single word of introspection, self analysis, or self criticism.

It may be moderately worded, but it is nothing more than the standard tirade against the west in general and the United States in particular.... small wonder it won the approbation of our resident anti Americans.

There was not even a passing reference to the global problems created by Islam, and certainly no suggestion as to how we should have responded to 9/11. Until these morons get their head out of the arse of their pig fecking Prophet Mohamed, they will be permanently closed to reason and there will never be any basis for discussion.

I wish to be quite unequivocal about this. I have not seen the famous film; it may not be very good, but I heartily approve of it; just as I approved of Life of Brian.

What I do not approve of, are muslim attempts to restrict my freedom to say anything, read anything, write anything or watch anything I may wish... this marks the end of freedom and the start of tyranny.

Others may choose to appease their oppressors, but not I.

In the modern age, our little planet cannot afford such forms of mass hysteria fuelled by the crass ignorance known as Islam.