A.J.Rimmer

I followed the Villa to Wembley, Highbury and Rotterdam... but I'm getting old and am not the fan I once was. I can't talk knowledgeably about the team, and I confess I was very keen on Lambert's idea of building a young side... sadly it did not work out. However, what I find intolerable, is his always insisting how well we played after yet another defeat. I'm afraid he's had his chance, but failed to take it. This is clearly relegation form... and he has to go!

That would be impossible by definition. The only side that ever mentions this word is Israel. They really should either get a better dictionary or stop trying to play a race card by the backdoor. It is typical of Israel to use such emotive language even though it is utterly incorrect. I’m sorry to disappoint anyone, but I am neither Jewish nor Israeli. I spent the early years of my life in Handsworth, hence my claret & blue blood. Nonetheless, I was disturbed by some of the invective thrown at Glarmorgan. [he was] open to discussing what Israel had done wrong and what they should be doing better. He is free to do this, as in Israel they don’t drag you out into the street and shoot you for disagreeing... yet despite his obvious intelligence and charm, he found not one supporter I’m aware of, which led me to join in this discussion. Glarmorgan may have been the first person to mention anti Semitism, but I was thinking it before he wrote it. The anti Semites amongst us are hardly going to say ‘I support Hamas ‘cos I hate Jews’... are they? For everyone else Israel could do no right and the Palestinians could do no wrong... but of course there is not a single anti Semite amongst them... they just want to protect children...or, more accurately, Palestinian children! Now I cannot provide mathematical proof of the point I am making, but I will attempt, albeit inadequately, to go some of the way... try this: Back on page 59 you will see Peterms posts a photo of yet another anti Israeli vote in the United Nations. It is passed by just one1 European country... Russia. Others voting in favour were: China Algeria Congo Ivory Coast Cuba ... Ethiopia Kazakhstan Kenya UAE Kuwait Morocco Saudi Namibia S. Africa Venezuela & Vietnam. ... Those who failed to support the motion, hid behind the USA, who they knew would use their veto. They were: Austria Czech Republic Estonia France Germany Italy Montenegro Japan Macedonia Romania Britain & Korea ... Now here is my one question, Bickster, do please try to answer it: How come just about everyone agrees with that ramshackle collection of ha ha liberal democracies headed by Russia... whilst I alone side with the civilised nations which best represent our society? Can you think of a convincing and intelligent answer other than anti Semitism? I can’t.

I couldn't agree more... what a pity that so many people don't recognise Hamas's "indiscriminate killing of all people from a section of the world" as a, and I quote you again, "mental deranged unjustifiable inhuman" aim that it clearly is, full stop.

trolling: 'trying to catch a fish by trailing a baited line through water behind a boat'... I don't think I was doing that... in case you hadn't noticed I'm on the side of the Israelis here, so Jew baiting is not my style. Godwin's Law: Good one... I confess I'd never heard of it before. However, certain aspects of this discussion could be associated with anti semitism, which along with killing Jews was one of the salient features that defined a Nazi... and Hamas. This was not a discussion about nurses pay, so I think Mr Godwin would have to give me this one.

That's either trolling or an entirely new definition of "valid", which on planet earth means reasonable, justifiable, rational, logical etc. Claiming validity for hitlers aims is the inverse of godwins law, I'd have thought. I'll go with trolling, I think. You're probably right... I didn't much like the use of 'valid' myself... I thought of 'legitimate', but that seemed even worse. That said however, if one believes the world would be better off without any particular race, it would at least seem 'logical' to get rid of them. I'm now off to look up what is meant by trolling, which I have heard of, and Godwin's Law, which I haven't.

I think I saw this little fellow on TV recently... he was singing Israeli hate songs and chanting 'Death to all Jews'... looks like they heard him. As for your above comment... oddly enough not too many Germans are Nazis nowadays and they have proved surprisingly reluctant to vote for Jew killers. SECURE THE SAME FUTURE FOR YOUR KIDS.... VOTE HAMAS

Thanks I'll take that as a compliment.

56 to 1350 and every single one of the 56 died invading another country not learning maths or playing on a beach or sheltering from bombs Not quite accurate, but I take your point. Now in WW2 the Germans lost some 5,500,000... but we lost a tiny proportion of that... from memory some 360,000. Do let me know if you and your friends wish to volunteer to even up the numbers a little... the Germans and I would feel so much better.

I've killed a man. Correct me if I'm wrong... but didn't JR survive?

Good post. I too am inclined to that way of thinking... not only in respect of this thread... but also with regard to Israel and Palestine. Perhaps David Owen was right when talking about the Balkans... 'the best solution is to fight it out'. Maybe we should allow that to happen in Palestine. I can already hear you all crying 'Ooo thats not fair, Israel is stronger'... well I remember 1967 when Israel was expected to lose, but she won... I remember the celebrations of 1973, when the Egyptians caught Israel by surprise during Yom Kippur... yet 3 weeks later were begging for a ceasefire. The fact is, the Arabs were stronger, much stronger, but as fighters they are even worse than the French. However well he started in 1939. after Stalingrad Hitler was sliding quickly down the tube... but credit where credit is due... did he winge... not for a moment. So in 1945 we closed in for an easy kill. I wasn't born then, but I do not remember my mummy and daddy telling me it wasn't fair on dear cuddly old Uncle Adolf. He sowed it and he reaped it.

wrong I guess I'm part of 'everyone'. What I want is for the Israeli military to stop murdering children and bombing UN shelters. Amen to that. The genuine empathy and support I had for Israel was demolished when the IDF started deliberately shelling UN refugee centres and murdering children. That doesn't make me a liberal it makes me a human being, furthermore it removes any claim your comrades in arms have to being better than the scum bags in surrounding countries who do the same. **** terrorists one and all. What deplorable and emotive language. To have any kind of reasoned discussion, we have to realise there are no murders going on here... no, not even by Hamas... there are just killings. I wonder how many of you here have actually killed anyone? Let's at least start by using the correct terminology and calling things what they actually are. If Hamas aims to killl every Jew on the planet, as did Hitler, that is a perfectly clear and valid aim... but as also happened with Hitler and his followers, there will be consequences...it's all the dumb feckers who snivel about it afterwards that I can't stand.

Today's 3 day ceasefire ended within 3 hours after what the UN, not famed for their support of Israel, described as 'flagrant breaches by Hamas'. These are the words of the BBC. Netanyahu has promised a crushing response. Some Tory MP on the radio, again described Israel's response as excessive, in view of the lesser damage caused by Hamas. But he forgot to tell us how many rockets Hamas should be allowed to fire without a reaction from Israel? How many Israeli deaths are acceptable without Israel trying to stop them. Perhaps some of you might come up with some figures...I'll gladly pass them on to Netanyahu for his consideration. This conflict will never end until the Palestinians take responsibility for their own people, territory, government, policy, call it what you will... but with Hamas there, it will not be easy. Hamas are not interested in working, they are not interested in wealth creation, they are not interested in improving the standard of living and they are certainly not interested in the lives of the people. Hamas are only interested in maintaining their power and swaggering about with their guns by prolonging the conflict and raising the death toll... not just this time, but all the other times yet to come... just like the Nazis. Did the Nazis give a shit about the German man in the street... I don't think so... they only cared about themselves... just like Hamas today. There were many days in 1945 when the allies killed more enemy civilians than we lost in the entire Blitz. Was that excessive, or did it have to be done? Finally, we crushed Nazism arid rid the German people of Hitler, something they had been unable to achieve themselves... let's hope Israel does the same for the poor Palestinians. Civilian casulties are regretable, but inevitable. I want Israel to finish the job... and it may not win many votes, but the responsible, democratic, I didn't say perfect, just democratic, governments of the world wish for the same.

Working with Arafat was no easy matter...and the Israelis tried. As for the Israeli military... yes, they are good... but the Israelis have no 'fail safe' mechanism. The iron dome is great, but far from perfect. Hamas insurgents still come through the tunnels and kill Israeli civilians... deliberately! I'm not sure of the latest count, but Israel aslo has some 50 dead... and they didn't die of old age. There is also such a thing as the fog of war... things happen which were unintended... and for sure there have been instances of Israeli soldiers deciding to take out some Gazan civilians, just because they felt like it... perhaps they had just lost some of their mates. This does not make it right... it is wrong... but it is also war... and whatever the instructions of the Israeli government, some soldiers will break the rules. It always happens.

Yes, Hamas were voted in... like Hitler... but they will not easily be voted out... like Hitler. Sadly democracy is no guarantee of making smart decisions... but to paraphrase many who went before me... it is the least unpleasant form of government. As for Israel having had their foot on Palestine... yes, you are quite right and in some, even many, respects that is very true. But not all the rights are on the side of Palestinians... there are also features of this conflict where right, if one can determine such a thing, is on the side of the Israelis. The problem is that if we trudge back through the history... where does it all end? That really would be a waste of time. As I said above, we have to make the best of the situation history has left us. It seems only reasonable to accept that Israel is now an entity which the world should accept. The alternative, and I remember David Owen saying this in the early 90's about Yugoslavia, is to fight it out and see who wins. Who knows? That may be the best solution... just don't fecking cry when they lose... either of them.

This could easily be applied to Israel. As per PMQ's... I refer you to my previous answer.

C'mon a a few posts ago, you argued that Israel was a liberal democracy, make your mind up. I assume this is a not very clever shot at semantics... Israel is a liberal democracy. They put their corrupt politicians in prison. They are clearly not a dictatorship and they do not murder their own people. Try answering this: did five and a half million Germans die because they fell out with that famously corrupt, dictatorial and murderous fellow, Neville Chamberlain... or did they die because they were so stupid they allowed a fellow called Adolf Hitler to take control of their government? You're a brainy fellow... try to work it out.

Fair point... and I confess I was amazed they found sufficient common ground in Norther Ireland. I don't know how relevant a point this is, but as I understand it the British government indicated to the IRA that Northern Ireland was not an entity to which they were ideologically committed... and that if the province voted to join the republic... that would be fine. I think the IRA used this to save face and give up a fight which they were clearly losing. We should also remember the intransigence of successive Westminster governments had pretty much defeated the IRA... and the IRA knew it. Also, by the end of the troubles, the protestants were killing catholics twice as fast as catholics were killing protestants... and though no one admits it, the protestants were pursued with much less vigour than the IRA, who were fast running out of options. Back to Israel... we might start by Hamas dropping the total destruction of Israel from their stated aims. Perhaps this might, given time, encourage Israel to make concesions... but finding moderates in Gaza is no easy matter... before they start talking to anyone, Hamas will most probably murder them. This is not a propaganda point... it is a simple fact with which we must contend.

After a life of almost perfect health, I spent 38 days in hospital this year. To my surprise, I now find I have a very definite physical reaction when I see, or even hear of, any human suffering. Perhaps I should post this on another thread, as I’m curious to know if anyone else experiences such excessive physical empathy... perhaps previously, I was just a heartless bastard... I really don’t know. To a much lesser degree than recently, I have always felt this when children were involved, either through illness, injuries or hunger. It is truly heartbreaking to see those beautiful little children suffering, be they in Gaza, Syria or Southern Sudan... whilst I have always been so lucky. Yet the fact remains, the suffering of Gaza, Syria and Southern Sudan are not caused by the CIA, the Zionists or even that arch devil, Mrs Thatcher. These children are all suffering as a result of corrupt, dictatorial, murderous leadership... without whose destruction, there is really no hope for today’s children, or the children who follow them. Truly, I do not wish to see more suffering, but this is a job Israel must finish... just as we finished in 1945, rather than stopping short as we did in 1918.

No, it is certainly not genocide... but genocide is the stated aim of Hamas as written in their own charter. Your finger is pointing in the wrong direction. I also object to your use of the word 'deliberate'. How can you know that?

I agree with this very reasonable and sensible post... but it still leaves the question of how to proceed. In fairness, I think you would have to grant that previous attempts to reason with any kind of fundamentalists, inside and outside the near east, have been doomed. One problem Israel faces is that when they cut any kind of deal with the Arabs, they can hold up their end of the agreement because the Israeli government is in control of Israeli policy. The Arabs, on the other hand, include numerous disparate groupings, so you make peace with one lot and suddenly some new organisation... Black September, Hezbollah, the PLO, the Alternative PLO or the Provisional Alternative PLO start shooting again. Try finding a solution to that problem!

The proponents of sanity always have a price to pay... I'm used to it.

Yes, Israel is a legitimate liberal democracy. Their government changes as a result of elections... unlike in Gaza. They imprison their politicians for breaking the law... unlike ion Gaza. The TV, the papers and the people are all free to say what they like... indeed, like us, Israelis never stop arguing... you can see it every day. Hamas, as a couple of years back, is using this current war to murder their critics within Gaza. I know this is true as two years ago I had lunch with a Gazan whose father was murdered by Hamas. No democracy is perfect, and Israel has to allow for their lunatic fringe religious nutcases... but they do not go around murdering Christians or burning churches like their palestinian neighbours...look a little further afield and Muslims are busy killing other muslims with different brand labels. I am not saying the creation of Israel was right... any more than was the creation of the USA and Australia. There are arguments on both sides... but we have to deal with the situation we inherited. As for religion, it is of course the elephant in the room. As you, or was it someone else mentioned, my views on religion are well documented. They are all stone age superstitions, we tolerate at our peril... this, at least, is a widely held opinion on this site. A year or two back, I argued here that rocket firing was the red line, that if crossed, would draw a military response... like the invasion of Belgium a hundred years ago... and this has proved to be the case, just as Hamas planned. What bothers me when reading the posts of my opponents on this site, is the absolute total and utter absense of any alternative policy to the use of armed force by Israel. There you all are, wringing your hands about Palestian deaths, but not a word about how to stop the rockets, or their intended victims who really are children. Mercifully, Hamas are not very good shots. As for your mention of site preferences... I don't quite understand... are you saying you would like to gag me... if so you're in the wrong place... you should try living in Syria or Iraq, where you would fit in just fine.

well, only AJ can answer that, it's in a different typeface which suggests it may have been lifted and pasted, but from memory, previous posts regarding views on religion and freedom loving liberal democracies I'd guess it's his own work - but that's a guess we can live in hope that it's just a spoof piece he's lifted from Viz am I perilously close to getting all post on poster here? perhaps I'll park this up You're quite right, I wrote it on Word and left it for a day or so before deciding to enter this debate. Give me a little time and I will try and answer everyone.

History has left us with many difficult and unjust situations. Should all the black and white people return from the Americas and hand both continents back to the Indians? On this basis, imagine what would happen in Australasia, plus just about every other place on the planet. My Y chromosome says I’m a Celt... which means most of you would have to find somewhere else to live, so I could stay quietly on this island with only my fellow Celts for company. Clearly, to go down this road would be madness. It seems obvious therefore, we have to make the best of the cards we’ve been dealt and try to resolve such historical anomalies as fairly as possible. This principle must also apply to Israel. The alternative to compromise, is the total destruction of the state of Israel and the annihilation of the Israelis who live there. This is a perfectly valid aim, and if the two hundred million odd enemies surrounding Israel can achieve this... good luck to them. After all, let us not forget, this is the avowed intent of Hamas... and judging by the last election result in Gaza, this is also the intention of the people who live there. BUT, if this is what they intend, as is stated in the Hamas charter and approved by the Gazan voters, why are they moaning if Israeli decide to annihilate them first... sounds to me like a perfect case of ‘fair’s fair’. During WW1 we killed 1 in every 50 odd Germans, but it was not enough to end Prussian militarism or German expansionism... so 20 years later we killed 1 in every 15 Germans... and that did the trick. So far the Israelis have killed only 1 in every 1500 odd Gazans... so it’s no wonder the Gazans are still fighting. (I didn’t look up any of these numbers). Just like Germany in the last century... what is needed is a Gazan population who understand the cost of aggression... who understand the cost of having the democratic process and the rule of law usurped... who recognise the right of others to live in peace without being attacked by their neighbours... and who realise that extreme beliefs, be they Nazi or Islamic, are a pile of pig shit which the civilised world should never tolerate. It is no accident that properly informed, right thinking people in Westminster and Washington, Brussels and Berlin, take the side of the Israelis... unlike the ill informed, wrong thinking people supporting the Gazans. Finally, I lost 8 relatives in the Great War, none in WW2, and my great great grandfather was wounded in the foot at Quatre Bras, two days before Waterloo. I am neither Jewish nor an agent of the Mossad... but I support all liberal democracies who, like Israel, believe in freedom of speech and the rule of law. Their neighbours do not... they believe in some pathetic non-existent God... and enjoy killing those who believe otherwise.

Politics is word that can cover pretty much everything... even football. As for resources and land, everywhere one looks both of these exist in abundance, but in recent times it’s rare for conflict to break out for their control. The thinking world has realised, through bitter experience, there are better way of resolving such issues. Even in the Middle East, I struggle to remember any wars aimed at resource control, other than those begun by Saddam Hussein. As for the Israeli-Palestine conflict: ‘Yes’, I do believe this would not have occurred without the religious differences. Christians, let’s not forget them, took great pleasure slaughtering Jews for over 1,000 years; but they followed their most recent Holocaust, by giving the Jews their own state. Your idea that war would still exist in the lands we now call Israel were it all controlled by Muslims, is frankly laughable. Atheists are entirely different to our religious bretheren. Secular thought is based upon reason... religion is the antithesis of reason. There are more stars in this universe than there are grains of sand on the earth... just imagine how many planets there are... yet the ‘bretheren’ believe each and every one of them is in constant telepathic contact with the creator of all this. It’s not that this idea is laughable, arrogant, or even wicked... the real worry is how dangerous it is. If you don’t believe me, just look today's news. No, we have given this filth and its adherents air time for much too long, and in more ignorant times, when they had power, they invariably used it to kill those who disagreed with them. Please tell me, what is extreme about my views? I believe that 2 + 2 = 4, I believe our roundish world goes round the sun, and I believe we evolved from more simple forms. ‘Extreme’ is thinking some Jewish carpenter was the son of god, or some murderous Arab warlord was the divine messenger, or that Noah marched all the animals into the arc before the big flood... now that is ‘Extreme’... and anyone who believes such rubbish is an extremist. As for Stalin, probably the greatest mass murderer in history, like all his fellow communists, he murdered to repress his political opponents... not in the name of atheism. Sorry to be so long winded, but I hope I covered all your points.