The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[Wainy316]

Slightly more attractive than she used to be but all things considered WnB.

[tonyh29]

52 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Unless I've misread the judgement, the court confirmed that Javid had the legal right to do it, and made no comment on the (potentially) politically expedient reasons why he did it.

I believe her lawyer put it out there at the time (2019) that it was solely done due to his leadership aspirations and for whatever reason ,  that's what some people have tended to focus on ! 

there have been numerous appeals on the decision that the courts have either stuck with , or over turned ( she won her first appeal as I recall, as the court finding in her favour had made numerous mistakes in reaching their conclusion)  .. 

its a confusing case where it appears one defence is she can't go back to Bangladesh as she will face the death penalty and another argument that the UK don't have any grounds to revoke her citizenship  ( even though she appears to have admitted joining ISIS which can carry up to 14 years , I believe ?)

I don't blame her lawyers for trying , but their case is weaker than our defence on a corner 

[KentVillan]

2 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

the article I linked to said it was automatic via  (Citizenship Act 1951 ) bloodline until they were 21 and then they have to exercise the right to continue it  , she was 20 when the UK government removed her British Citizenship 

Bangladesh were arguing otherwise , but I don't see anything in that 1951 act that confirms their viewpoint , but admittedly its not my area of expertise 

Yes, although contradicting that is the point that Bangladesh doesn’t recognise dual nationality.

So I think Javid’s argument (which makes sense legally I guess) is that upon being stripped of UK citizenship she then immediately became a Bangladeshi citizen, so they avoided rendering her stateless.

But forgetting about Begum specifically and the legalities for a moment, practically it just doesn’t seem to be a sustainable policy since you just incentivise other countries to start doing the same thing to you, and then you’re back to square one dealing with UK citizens who were previously someone else’s problem.

And that’s not a lefty liberal VT perspective - Jacob Rees Mogg was also of the view that Javid’s policy was misguided.

I think the IRA example is a good one. This wasn’t used as a tool during the Troubles. The fact other countries like the US, who are hardly a soft touch on terrorism, haven’t done this speaks volumes I think.

[NurembergVillan]

7 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

Blandy appears to make the case that she could walk free if she came back to the UK 

what are the grounds for Bangladesh executing her ? 

If she's found guilty on terror charges.

The UK won't extradite someone if death is a potential penalty for their alleged crime.

[blandy]

8 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

Blandy appears to make the case that she could walk free if she came back to the UK 

what are the grounds for Bangladesh executing her ? 

That was incidental. I was speculating that it would be extremely difficult to gather evidence from Syria of her breaking UK law and that therefore the idea that she would/could return to the uk, go straight on trial and get convicted. I was speculating that the government side probably knows they don’t have much beyond “she went missing, turned up in Syria with 2 pals, was ok with all the murdering and head chopping going on, because she felt it was permitted by her religion (in her view). That she had babies and husband and they died and disappeared and she was discovered 3 years later by a journo, at the refugee camp.”

Its possible that the government has specific evidence that she is still very much a threat to national security, but I doubt it.

personally I don’t think that the government should be able to remove citizenship from British nationals who are born here, or arrived here as infants. There’s maybe a case for doing so for people granted it as adults, who then go on to commit the most serious offences, but even then I’m not convinced.

[OutByEaster?]

You'd think there would be some sort of deal on offer where she'd be repatriated to the UK in return for a confession of sorts, a symbolic imprisonment and some sort of public display of remorse , regret and rejection of former principles.

 

[blandy]

3 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

some sort of public display of remorse , regret and rejection of former principles

I don’t believe from her interviews that she is remorseful. The one with Sky, the one with the Times, the one with (maybe it was?) the BBC.  She’s clearly sad that bad stuff has happened to her, but it didn’t come across as if she cared about victims of ISIS at all. That’s possibly one reason for her being (we’re told) still a security risk.

[OutByEaster?]

46 minutes ago, blandy said:

I don’t believe from her interviews that she is remorseful. The one with Sky, the one with the Times, the one with (maybe it was?) the BBC.  She’s clearly sad that bad stuff has happened to her, but it didn’t come across as if she cared about victims of ISIS at all. That’s possibly one reason for her being (we’re told) still a security risk.

I think you're absolutely right and I would think that she's scuppered any hope of this sort of deal herself. I'm not sure if she's badly advised or just not the erm, shiniest pebble in the desert.

 

[chrisp65]

I think its very difficult to tell if someone, anyone, has genuine remorse.

It would certainly be very difficult for a bunch of middle aged blokes to properly read someone that left the country as a 15 year old girl, entered ISIS territory, was married / raped and had 3 kids all of which died, and has spent the last 8 years in ISIS territory or camps.

This doesn’t mean I’m supporting her. 

 

[OutByEaster?]

I'm not sure I'd need genuine remorse, just public remorse.

It's a moot point anyway I guess, there's no such idea on the table and I can't see it happening.

 

[chrisp65]

3 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I'm not sure I'd need genuine remorse, just public remorse.

It's a moot point anyway I guess, there's no such idea on the table and I can't see it happening.

 

The problem with performative remorse is understanding the audience. Is the audience after tears? Would they prefer stiff up lip, harsh self assessment and a pledge to life long charity work?

Justice should be blind for very good reason.

 

[blandy]

18 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

 

I think its very difficult to tell if someone, anyone, has genuine remorse.

 

Well yes, but if the answer to the question “do you have any remorse?” is “no, it was permitted by Islam and I had no problem with it”, it does tend to help us clueless middle aged blokes start to form a tentative view.

[chrisp65]

4 hours ago, blandy said:

Well yes, but if the answer to the question “do you have any remorse?” is “no, it was permitted by Islam and I had no problem with it”, it does tend to help us clueless middle aged blokes start to form a tentative view.

I didn’t use the word clueless. But I would stick with my assertion we’re coming at this from a very different body of lived experience when compared with a minor that was raped in a war zone, has seen three of her own children die and has spent years in a camp and even now is only 25 and goes from years left alone to being quizzed and filmed for TV.

 

[LondonLax]

4 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I didn’t use the word clueless. But I would stick with my assertion we’re coming at this from a very different body of lived experience when compared with a minor that was raped in a war zone, has seen three of her own children die and has spent years in a camp and even now is only 25 and goes from years left alone to being quizzed and filmed for TV.

 

She is absolutely a victim. With all the psychological damage that goes with it. 

[foreveryoung]

7 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

She is absolutely a victim. With all the psychological damage that goes with it. 

Victim? So at 15 your old enough to make a decision on your gender, but to young to understand the shit you are entering going abroad to join and support a terror organisation.

 

[blandy]

16 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

we’re coming at this from a very different body of lived experience when compared with a minor that was raped in a war zone, has seen three of her own children die and has spent years in a camp and even now is only 25 and goes from years left alone to being quizzed and filmed for TV.

I agree. Have you heard or read any of the interviews?

Quote

What was it about Islamic State that attracted you? What did you like about it?

The way they showed that you can go [to Syria] and they'll take care of you.

You can have your own family, do anything. You're living under Islamic law.

Did you know what Islamic State were doing when you left for Syria? Because they had beheaded people. There were executions. 

Yeah, I knew about those things and I was okay with it. Because, you know, I started becoming religious just before I left.

From what I heard, Islamically that is all allowed. So I was okay with it.

You didn't question that? 

No, not at all.

or

Quote

Ms Begum said she made the choice to go to Syria and could make her own decisions, despite being only 15 at the time. She said she was partly inspired by videos of fighters beheading hostages and also by videos showing "the good life" under IS. 

I have sympathy for her as a mother losing her children. That's about the extent of it, though. She also said she didn't like that kids were killed in the Manchester bombing, but that it was revenge for attacks on ISIS and so...

Essentially no remorse, only self pity.

[Davkaus]

11 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Victim? So at 15 your old enough to make a decision on your gender, but to young to understand the shit you are entering going abroad to join and support a terror organisation.

 

I agree with him, she was a victim of grooming and sex trafficking.

Being groomed doesn't absolve you of responsibility for your crimes though, she's a victim and she's a criminal. I'd expect it to be a mitigating circumstances if she ever saw a court room, but certainly not get her off the hook

[chrisp65]

3 minutes ago, blandy said:

I agree. Have you heard or read any of the interviews?

or

I’ve read and listened to a couple of her interviews yes. Not that I’ve given it detailed study but what I have noticed over time is a confused contradictory story and a dress code and body language that tries different signals for different times.

I’m not trying to build a case for the defence, I’m just questioning our ability to know what’s going on in that **** up head, in a camp full of ISIS survivors and sympathisers, thousands of miles away.

 

[LondonLax]

There is a reason why 15 year olds are considered too immature to vote and too irresponsible to drive.

[foreveryoung]

1 minute ago, LondonLax said:

There is a reason why 15 year olds are considered too immature to vote and too irresponsible to drive.

Maybe they should be considered to young to make other social decisions too then.