Designer1 Posted July 25, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted July 25, 2012 EDIT DOUBLE POST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonno_2004 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 You might want to put a spoiler alert on that post mate. Anyway, my interpretation of the ending is that... ***SPOILER*** What you see is what Alfred would like to have seen. It was massively sign-posted earlier in the film. Personally I think Batman/Wayne did die. After all, it's highly unlikely that someone as recognisable as Wayne wouldn't have been spotted before then, and Batman didn't have time enough to get away from the explosion. ***END SPOILER*** I see what you mean, and I would have liked that ending too only if they hadn't dropped the other two obvious hints that he survived Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 25, 2012 Author VT Supporter Share Posted July 25, 2012 You might want to put a spoiler alert on that post mate. Anyway, my interpretation of the ending is that... ***SPOILER*** What you see is what Alfred would like to have seen. It was massively sign-posted earlier in the film. Personally I think Batman/Wayne did die. After all, it's highly unlikely that someone as recognisable as Wayne wouldn't have been spotted before then, and Batman didn't have time enough to get away from the explosion. ***END SPOILER*** I see what you mean, and I would have liked that ending too only if they hadn't dropped the other two obvious hints that he survived Yes, the film makes too many nods to his surviving in those last 5 minutes, particularly the autopilot revelation, for me to quite believe a reading of the ending where Wayne is dead. I actually think the earlier drafts would be missing these nods, where we able to read them, and that it would have ended on the Alfred scene. Unfortunately I think Nolan has bottled it a little and left us with a slightly ambiguous ending that at, the crucial moments (having spent most of the film poking you in the ribs saying 'I'm gonna kill him off! I'm gonna do it! He's gonna die!'), at the last minute a reprive is given, as the film gives Wayne a stay of execution - the autopilot revelation, Alfred's vision featuring a woman he had no idea of Wayne's relationship with (all Alfred knows of Kyle is that she worked at Wayne Manor under false pretences and is a thief), the mysteriously disappeared pearls... It's still readable as 'he's dead' (and in all honestly I prefer that ending to what we got, it sits better with the entire film thematically, tonally, and frankly logistically) but those nods at that crucial moment... the ambiguity isn't really there. You also have to remember that Wayne has previous of disappearing - Begins has him vanish for years to the extent everyone thinks he's died, it's possible to believe in this narrative a man as big as Bruce Wayne can vanish off the face of the earth. Especially when he suggests to Kyle that she can have the completely fresh start she desires... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtsimonw Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 You might want to put a spoiler alert on that post mate. Anyway, my interpretation of the ending is that... ***SPOILER*** What you see is what Alfred would like to have seen. It was massively sign-posted earlier in the film. Personally I think Batman/Wayne did die. After all, it's highly unlikely that someone as recognisable as Wayne wouldn't have been spotted before then, and Batman didn't have time enough to get away from the explosion. ***END SPOILER*** **SPOILER** I don't think it's what Alfred would've liked to have seen and it's what actually happened. As Chindie said, the ending is full of little things that suggest Wayne is alive. The biggest thing for me is that Selina is in Italy with him. As far as I know, Alfred only knew Selina as some random buglar, so I don't think he'd be imagining her there with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Designer1 Posted July 25, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted July 25, 2012 You might want to put a spoiler alert on that post mate. Anyway, my interpretation of the ending is that... ***SPOILER*** What you see is what Alfred would like to have seen. It was massively sign-posted earlier in the film. Personally I think Batman/Wayne did die. After all, it's highly unlikely that someone as recognisable as Wayne wouldn't have been spotted before then, and Batman didn't have time enough to get away from the explosion. ***END SPOILER*** I see what you mean, and I would have liked that ending too only if they hadn't dropped the other two obvious hints that he survived Yes, the film makes too many nods to his surviving in those last 5 minutes, particularly the autopilot revelation, for me to quite believe a reading of the ending where Wayne is dead. I actually think the earlier drafts would be missing these nods, where we able to read them, and that it would have ended on the Alfred scene. Unfortunately I think Nolan has bottled it a little and left us with a slightly ambiguous ending that at, the crucial moments (having spent most of the film poking you in the ribs saying 'I'm gonna kill him off! I'm gonna do it! He's gonna die!'), at the last minute a reprive is given, as the film gives Wayne a stay of execution - the autopilot revelation, Alfred's vision featuring a woman he had no idea of Wayne's relationship with (all Alfred knows of Kyle is that she worked at Wayne Manor under false pretences and is a thief), the mysteriously disappeared pearls... It's still readable as 'he's dead' (and in all honestly I prefer that ending to what we got, it sits better with the entire film thematically, tonally, and frankly logistically) but those nods at that crucial moment... the ambiguity isn't really there. You also have to remember that Wayne has previous of disappearing - Begins has him vanish for years to the extent everyone thinks he's died, it's possible to believe in this narrative a man as big as Bruce Wayne can vanish off the face of the earth. Especially when he suggests to Kyle that she can have the completely fresh start she desires... Have to hold my hands up and say I missed the autopilot bit, and that really does add to the argument that he survived. To be honest, I preferred it when I thought Nolan had left it up to the viewers, as it was one of the parts I really liked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonno_2004 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 You might want to put a spoiler alert on that post mate. Anyway, my interpretation of the ending is that... ***SPOILER*** What you see is what Alfred would like to have seen. It was massively sign-posted earlier in the film. Personally I think Batman/Wayne did die. After all, it's highly unlikely that someone as recognisable as Wayne wouldn't have been spotted before then, and Batman didn't have time enough to get away from the explosion. ***END SPOILER*** I see what you mean, and I would have liked that ending too only if they hadn't dropped the other two obvious hints that he survived Yes, the film makes too many nods to his surviving in those last 5 minutes, particularly the autopilot revelation, for me to quite believe a reading of the ending where Wayne is dead. I actually think the earlier drafts would be missing these nods, where we able to read them, and that it would have ended on the Alfred scene. Unfortunately I think Nolan has bottled it a little and left us with a slightly ambiguous ending that at, the crucial moments (having spent most of the film poking you in the ribs saying 'I'm gonna kill him off! I'm gonna do it! He's gonna die!'), at the last minute a reprive is given, as the film gives Wayne a stay of execution - the autopilot revelation, Alfred's vision featuring a woman he had no idea of Wayne's relationship with (all Alfred knows of Kyle is that she worked at Wayne Manor under false pretences and is a thief), the mysteriously disappeared pearls... It's still readable as 'he's dead' (and in all honestly I prefer that ending to what we got, it sits better with the entire film thematically, tonally, and frankly logistically) but those nods at that crucial moment... the ambiguity isn't really there. You also have to remember that Wayne has previous of disappearing - Begins has him vanish for years to the extent everyone thinks he's died, it's possible to believe in this narrative a man as big as Bruce Wayne can vanish off the face of the earth. Especially when he suggests to Kyle that she can have the completely fresh start she desires...Sums it up perfectly for me! Caine's emotional performance warranted more ambiguity. If he'd have found a nice space between Inception and that.. perhaps a bit closer to Inception IMO.. then it'd have been great. Although at the end of the day perhaps it wasn't the ending the intended audience was supposed to get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 25, 2012 Author VT Supporter Share Posted July 25, 2012 Have to hold my hands up and say I missed the autopilot bit, and that really does add to the argument that he survived. To be honest, I preferred it when I thought Nolan had left it up to the viewers, as it was one of the parts I really liked In fairness after a 2hrs40mins I think it's forgivable to miss/forget a little 15 second scene! I do agree that a more ambiguous, or if a definitive ending was required, a 'definitely died' ending is more satisfying. In all honesty I do believe Nolan was all set to do a 'definitely dead' ending, the whole film is bent on that ending. It's arguable the most powerful moment in the film is the slow, sustained shot of Batman's face as he flies to bomb into the bay, and turns to face directly at the audience, right before the explosion. And the entirety of the way the final flight to safe distance is cut to make us believe he was definitely in the explosion - cuts to Batman in the cockpit during the flight, etc etc. But then it's all undermined with the quickfire rebuttals those nods provide. It's arguable that the autopilot plot strand only exists to enable a revelation that negates the 'dead' narrative. It did leave me slightly disappointed, personally, that it did shy away from the sad but powerful end, but it seems to be the final flourish for a lot of other people so I guess Nolan can justify it. Incidentally, where is all this talk of a 4 hour cut coming from? I swear I consumed every bit of info on this in the build-up (and relayed most of it back here...) and I never heard anything of a 4 hour cut. There was talk that the original end of filming rough cut, before final editing, stood at roughly 3 hours... which I was concerned about considering Nolan's history with poor pacing in his longer films, and lead to briggaman here saying he would happily watch a 4 hour Nolan Batman if he had to (he could have said any number really, 5, 6...10?). I think this might have confused a few people. At best, you could maybe see a 3 hour cut, but chances are Nolan binned what he felt he needed to and the theatrical cut, at 2hrs44, is the cut of TDKR and there'll be no deleted scenes/extended cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briggaman Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I actually don't have anything to add. I just wanted to join in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Designer1 Posted July 25, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted July 25, 2012 In fairness after a 2hrs40mins I think it's forgivable to miss/forget a little 15 second scene! I do agree that a more ambiguous, or if a definitive ending was required, a 'definitely died' ending is more satisfying. In all honesty I do believe Nolan was all set to do a 'definitely dead' ending, the whole film is bent on that ending. It's arguable the most powerful moment in the film is the slow, sustained shot of Batman's face as he flies to bomb into the bay, and turns to face directly at the audience, right before the explosion. And the entirety of the way the final flight to safe distance is cut to make us believe he was definitely in the explosion - cuts to Batman in the cockpit during the flight, etc etc. But then it's all undermined with the quickfire rebuttals those nods provide. It's arguable that the autopilot plot strand only exists to enable a revelation that negates the 'dead' narrative. It did leave me slightly disappointed, personally, that it did shy away from the sad but powerful end, but it seems to be the final flourish for a lot of other people so I guess Nolan can justify it. Yep, you're bang on there. I'm actually disappointed that A) I missed the autopilot bit and I gave the ending more credit than it deserves. It was a great bit of entertainment, but **** me was it full of plot holes, inconsistencies and some awful editing (some of the cuts were really harsh) that I wouldn't have expected from Nolan. Still, it was 1,000,000 times better than the Inception borefest. Hopefully, he'll do something a little more like Memento/Prestige next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ads Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Inception a borefest? You must be a loon. Its the best Bond film ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rino8 Posted July 25, 2012 Visiting Supporter Share Posted July 25, 2012 Finally got to see it tonight, not going to bother picking it apart like it has been, it has it's slight problems but I don't particularly care, it's a superb movie. Bane sounds like a high pitched Sean Connery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtsimonw Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Finally got to see it tonight, not going to bother picking it apart like it has been, it has it's slight problems but I don't particularly care, it's a superb movie. Bane sounds like a high pitched Sean Connery I do think this movie has been really looked into more than any other. It seems everywhere I look people are intent on pushing it down. You're the 3rd person I've heard mention about the Sean Connery thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briggaman Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 People are intent on pushing it down because it was a big budget film and the holes that are clearly evident should not have been there. I do really like the film, yet it could have been a lot better. People pick apart other films so I see no reason why Nolan should be exempt from criticism... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 watched it last night. Thought it was 'OK', nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaForever1970 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Yep, you're bang on there. I'm actually disappointed that A) I missed the autopilot bit and I gave the ending more credit than it deserves. It was a great bit of entertainment, but **** me was it full of plot holes, inconsistencies and some awful editing (some of the cuts were really harsh) that I wouldn't have expected from Nolan. Still, it was 1,000,000 times better than the Inception borefest. Hopefully, he'll do something a little more like Memento/Prestige next. Along with the fixed Bat sign and the fact that Alfred met Selina Kyle once was it? No reference for him to see her with Bruce at the end, so Alfred wasn't dreaming it or imagining it imo. Dont get the plot hole grumble about it really, TDK is loaded full of them as well. Films like this always will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob182 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I watched this last night and I enjoyed it. It was a bit long, but I guess it needed to be with the amount of shit that happened. I liked the ending. I completely agree with what jon_c said a few pages back: Because it's a comic book world, take it for the slice of cinematic fantasy that it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Saw it on Monday, overall it was decent enough although I thought the 'climb out of the prison hole' plot line was a bit silly tbh. Not as good as no.2 imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarethRDR Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I thought the 'climb out of the prison hole' plot line was a bit silly tbh.Not that I've ever read the comics, but wasn't that intended as a nod to the Lazarus Pits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I saw it last night too and thought it was brilliant. Fun, dark and at times it moved me. He moved a step closer to his masterpiece. Plot holes a plenty, but its a comic book superhero movie, what do you expect. Hardy was superb as ever, I prefered Bane to Ledgers Joker. He had much, much more substance than I expected and I thought the way his story wrapped up was genuinely satisfying, unlike The Jokers. Including almost reducing me to some very unexpected tears. I want to see it again, at the cinema, and that's as high a praise as I can give. Fitting end to a mezmarizing trilogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ads Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Its one of those films that the small screen doesn't do justice unless you have an immense sound system with a giant sub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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