Bolitics The New Condem Government

[tonyh29]

The cancellation of those projects was common knowledge before the election though so I'm not sure why there is suddenly surprise now it's being put in place ...

Ps .. Had to read your post twice Ian, for a sec I thought you called a labour policy ridiculous :-)

[bickster]

Pound dropped another cent almost against the Euro yesterday

[TrentVilla]

the reason I said look past the headline wasn't aimed at any individual poster more at the fact that money is still going to be available

We will have to see if it is still available, I have serious doubts given previous Tory governments lack of investment in education and the early policies of this government which include back door semi privatisation of the education system.

The new schools may not have shiny new bricks and designer windows but will actually provide more jobs for teachers.

What? That is utter nonesense. How on earth will the design of the schools result in more jobs for teachers? I don't see any logic in that conclusion.

what we had under the BSF program behind the shiny new bricks was the reality of poor teaching, declining standards of literacy and behaviour ..

so yes in part i do agree with what is being done ... they are aiming to increase the number and quality of teachers and also save on wastage / reduce the deficit

That statement simply shows the lack of knowledge you have of the sector. While there are issues with behaviour, granted. The standards of teaching and of literacy and numeracy in this country have not been declining.

In fact, standards of numeracy and literacy at Primary level have been rising for the last 10 years as a direct result of the investment the previous government in the system. In the recruitment and training of teachers, of their CPD training once in school, in their release time to plan, in the one to one tuition for those pupils falling below their expected levels of attainment.

I speak to headteachers every single day and have done for the last 10 years so don't try and tell me I'm wrong, don't try and tell me that the education sector didn't improve in these areas under the last government and please don't come back with the 13 years rubbish.

The previous government changed things at Primary level first and it takes years for those children to work their way through the system before the full results are seen at secondary level. They then moved on to improving secondary schools in terms of the creation of specialist colleges, Academies and the rebuilding program.

What exactly is your basis for the claim they are looking to increase the number and quality of the teachers? More to the point, why is there a need to increase the number of teachers? There isn't an overal shortage so there is no need to increase the numbers.

there is being critical and there is posts of " **** tories " etc etc ( again i'm aware you didn't post that ) which again comes back to my read beyond the headline post and see what is actually being said

What other poster write has nothing to do with it but you always seem to bring that in when challanged on an issue usually picking the base level examples. That has nothing to do with the questions I asked you or the post.

Reality is that the country is in deep economic trouble and action has to be taken ..i'm assuming you want to keep the £55 bn rebuilding program ..so where would that £55bn come from ?

Once again. I don't need a telling what reality is, I'm aware of the financial situation of the country. I just don't believe that cutting public spending at the level they are doing is the best way of doing it especially when this spending is so very much needed.

I have had no issue with the cutting back or cancellation of some of the projects, none at all. I do have serious issues with the Tory attitude and policy towards education, clearly you don't.

You could simply have said that rather than the stuff you've come out with in this discussion. I was very clear when I asked my original question, I was eager to avoid the way this discussion has gone.

[TrentVilla]

Pound dropped another cent almost against the Euro yesterday

A yes Bicks, but we have to wait 2 years until we are able to say if what they are doing is right.

[Awol]

Pound dropped another cent almost against the Euro yesterday

Well we are in a race to the bottom with the euro in order to keep exports competitive. The pound has been overvalued for a while anyway and devaluation will help with the debt situation.

[TrentVilla]

and see the way Coves dealt with Balls on news night ..another potential labour leader that has just harmed his cause

No I didn't see it to be honest but please don't try and talk up the performance of Goves after the week he has just had, he made a total arse of himself with the errors in that list.

I would imagine he is in for some very uncomfortable visits to some schools next week.

[drat01]

I would imagine he is in for some very uncomfortable visits to some schools next week.

He will probably visit them in August

[tonyh29]

I speak to headteachers every single day and have done for the last 10 years so don't try and tell me I'm wrong, don't try and tell me that the education sector didn't improve in these areas under the last government and please don't come back with the 13 years rubbish.

I speak to lawyers every day that doesn't make me a lawyer so that's kind of a flawed argument ... Do you have kids ? Have you been around looking at schools , have you seen the people leaving some of these schools ?

Easy to sit there and take the I know more than you approach but that doesn't make my views / opinions any less valid (and vice versa) I hear what you say but I also think the new plans make some sense and need to be given a chance

A yes Bicks, but we have to wait 2 years until we are able to say if what they are doing is right.

Pot meet Mr Kettle :-)

[TrentVilla]

I speak to headteachers every single day and have done for the last 10 years so don't try and tell me I'm wrong, don't try and tell me that the education sector didn't improve in these areas under the last government and please don't come back with the 13 years rubbish.

I speak to lawyers every day that doesn't make me a lawyer so that's kind of a flawed argument ... Do you have kids ? Have you been around looking at schools , have you seen the people leaving some of these schools ?

Easy to sit there and take the I know more than you approach but that doesn't make my views / opinions any less valid (and vice versa) I hear what you say but I also think the new plans make some sense and need to be given a chance

No it isn't a flawed arguement. I speak to head teachers about the very points we are discussing so I have rather more first hand knowledge on this than you. Do I visit schools? Yes every week and I've visted them every week for the last 10 years, how about you? I also live with an assistant head so I do have real real experience of the changes and improvements that have been made.

So I'm afraid on this subject I do know more than you, that doesn't mean you aren't entitled to your opinion I would have thought that was obvious considering I asked for it.

I'm not sure what new plans you are saying need to be given a chance, other than the sudo private schools policy (shown not to work in Sweden) there isn't a new policy. They are just cancelling the building program not replacing it

Talking of new policies, you didn't respond to my question on your claims about the need for more teachers and how cancelling building new schools was going to solve that so here it is again,

What exactly is your basis for the claim they are looking to increase the number and quality of the teachers? More to the point, why is there a need to increase the number of teachers? There isn't an overal shortage so there is no need to increase the numbers.

Pot meet Mr Kettle :-)

Eh? That makes no sense at all. Its you that says we have to wait two years not me, I think if you think something is a bad idea or not going to work you can say so without waiting two years.

I don't imagine you ever waited two years to say you thought Labour were getting things wrong but I guess its handy to say when people think the Tories are.

[tonyh29]

Eh? That makes no sense at all.

It was the irony of you moaning at my style of post and then imitating it :-)

I'm confused now Are we just confined to our areas of expertise from now on when posting and offering opinions ? , btw what is it you do for a living just so we can verify your credentials on this topic !!

The new plan Is to stop the building program and put the money directly In to teaching , hence teachers instead of shiny new buildings... There is a schol near me that shut 16 years ago and is still there and still on reasonable nick , the idea from the previous government was to go off and build a new school ... Now the plan is to reopen the old one ... Same end result with one major cost saving as a difference

The Swedish has had some success and some failure , like everything it's in the eye of the beholder , and the model the Tories are following worked well in a lot of instances in New York for example so again it's too early to dismiss it out of hand

[TrentVilla]

I was imitating it for humour Tony not adopting it, there is a marked difference.

The Tories aren't following the model in New York they are following the model in Sweden which is why their main advisor is from the company in Sweden who were behind the scheme there.

Where can I find some details of this new Tory plan? I've not seen any I would be interested to read it.

You say the plan is to stop the building program and put the money into teaching, weren't you previously saying they were scrapping them to stop public spending now you are saying they are going to spend the money in other ways within education. Which is it because it can't be both.

Why would they put money into additional teachers when there isn't a shortage? In parts of the North West schools have received around 100 applications for positions, doesn't sound like money is needed on generating more teachers to me.

Interesting point you raise in relation to the school near you, if its in reasonable nick and can be tarted up, why did the previous Tory government shut it in the first place? I doubt there are hundreds of schools up and down the country left empty that can be tarted up and used to meet what is a very clear demand so no it isn't the same result.

Please don't try and claim I'm saying you aren't entitled to your opinions or opinions in areas that aren't your experitise when I openly asked several times for your opinion.

[TrentVilla]

Oh look another Gove and co mistake...

Mr Gove has already apologised for earlier errors in the list data The education minister is facing fresh criticism after two local councils had their school projects axed - despite meeting the criteria to proceed.

Michael Gove had said that councils which had reached "financial close" with contractors under the axed national programme could go ahead.

But although Wigan and Bolton reached that milestone, their projects were named among more than 700 scrapped.

Wigan Borough Council is writing to Mr Gove about the discrepancy.

Continue reading the main story

We are in the process of writing to Michael Gove to seek clarification as to whether there has been some mistake

Sue Johnson

Deputy Chief Executive, Wigan Council

The education secretary has already apologised for a series of errors in data about the scrapping of the multi-billion pound Building Schools for Future (BSF) scheme.

A number of schools were led to believe they could go ahead with building projects which had in fact been axed.

In his apology to the Commons on Wednesday, Mr Gove urged any MPs concerned that their schools may have been wrongly categorised to contact him to ensure the information was "as accurate as possible".

The latest discrepancy came to light when BBC Radio 4's Today programme looked at the list of local authorities which had reached financial close.

This means the authorities have signed an agreement with a contractor to set up a local education partnership (LEP) to build certain schools.

In his announcement on Monday, Mr Gove said: "Where financial close has been reached in a local education partnership, the projects agreed under that LEP will go ahead.

"I will continue to look at the scope for savings in all these projects."

Joint partnership

Both Wigan and Bolton had reached financial close and had entered partnerships with neighbouring authorities which have had projects go ahead.

But Wigan's £80m of projects for Lowton and Golborne, Hesketh Fletcher, Bedford, Hindley and Westleigh have all been halted.

Deputy chief executive Sue Johnson told the Today programme: "We have got a joint local education partnership with Salford City Council... and we have reached financial close with the LEP.

"So we were very confused and a bit nonplussed as to why Wigan then were told 'you are not going to go ahead'."

"So we are in the process of writing to Michael Gove to seek clarification as to whether there has been some mistake."

Graham Stuart, the Conservative chair of the Education Select Committee, said: "I'm sure when the local authorities write to the department they will look at this and respond and explain how they came to their conclusions."

Here

[Awol]

My access to UK news is fairly limited and I'm not up to speed with the minutiae of some of the new policy announcements, however on the face of it this education business seems to have been a royal balls up. As education wasn't one of the two ring fenced departments then it's inevitable cuts have to be made - unfortunate as it may be - but the execution of them by Goves appears muddled to say the least.

[TrentVilla]

My access to UK news is fairly limited and I'm not up to speed with the minutiae of some of the new policy announcements, however on the face of it this education business seems to have been a royal balls up. As education wasn't one of the two ring fenced departments then it's inevitable cuts have to be made - unfortunate as it may be - but the execution of them by Goves appears muddled to say the least.

Muddled at best and suggests its been done in haste with little thought or I would say planning, it is certainly unlikely any kind of comprehensive alternative plan has been put in place.

I agree though some cuts were inevitable, without question. I just feel these are too deep, ill advised, ill thought out and certainly lacking in planning.

[Clarry]

A lot of the overspend on BSF is on private "consultants". Which, where I am is usually Aussie and NZ graduates getting £40,000+ for jobs which are basically admin. I'm a leftie, but I blame Labour and my Council for this. But I don't begrudge the workers this, because to get people on 2/3 year contracts they are more likely (in my mind) to have to offer a higher wage because of the short -term employment. Hence the popularity with "Aussie/NZers. I wouldn't rick it. Give me a lower wage and longevity(soon to go though!) And it's easier to get Anderson's Consultants to bring in the staff than to have you're own Council HR advertise, recruit and employ. Easier, not cheaper.

But the schools built round me are very impressive. It seems to be the British disease (under any political hue) though, that whenever something "big" needs building, the costs are higher than anywhere else because of the "old boys" culture. Wembley being an example. And the Olympics...what a surprise that some on the committe own large tracts of land where the Olympic Village is being built.

Back to the school building projects...we have MPs telling children in some schools to stay in their disgraceful classroom conditions. High-waged men and women, some being millionaires and multi-millionaires, telling schools (and thus children) to put up with it. Would they sit in Parliament with leaking roofs, no heating in winter and no air-conditioning in summer? Or their constituency offices? No.

Child abuse.

[markavfc40]

the ConDem's have sent out emails to their MP's "warning" them not to come out with anything embarrassing about schools in their own constituencies. Another appalling act from an already disgraceful Gvmt

So if a MP doesn't agree with what is now happening its a case of keep your mouth shut and tow the party line. Absolutely **** disgraceful.

[Gringo]

the ConDem's have sent out emails to their MP's "warning" them not to come out with anything embarrassing about schools in their own constituencies. Another appalling act from an already disgraceful Gvmt

So if a MP doesn't agree with what is now happening its a case of keep your mouth shut and tow the party line. Absolutely **** disgraceful.

Oh please.

[chrisp65]

and see the way Coves dealt with Balls on news night ..another potential labour leader that has just harmed his cause

No I didn't see it to be honest but please don't try and talk up the performance of Goves after the week he has just had, he made a total arse of himself with the errors in that list.

I would imagine he is in for some very uncomfortable visits to some schools next week.

I did see the Goves / Balls newsnight spat. By my recollection Goves half heartedly retracted what he accused balls of and changed his accusation from a list of specifics (which the civil servants corrected Goves on in writing) to a stumbling accusation of broad waffly intent.

The dying days of Labour were very poor, with Balls being as poor as any of the others. Faced with this open goal Goves has **** up in the clamour to cut. He'd do well to just lie low for a good while.

[tonyh29]

I was imitating it for humour Tony not adopting it, there is a marked difference.

yeah when i do it you moan ( see last election thread) and when you do it it's funny :winkold:

Please don't try and claim I'm saying you aren't entitled to your opinions or opinions in areas that aren't your expertise when I openly asked several times for your opinion

indeed you did and when I gave them you quoted your CV back at me and told me i couldn't possibly be right because i don't talk to teachers every day for the last 10 years ...

look my reply was a little private joke at your expense based around your hot tips you gave me regarding the new County manager , probably lost on everyone in the world barr me but i was being a bit mischievous with you .. no malice intended

Why would they put money into additional teachers when there isn't a shortage?

my lad's school has class sizes of 18 and also has a teacher assistant in the class ... i gather most schools are running at around 30 pupils ? i guess that would be why they need more teachers , to reduce class sizes ?

I doubt there are hundreds of schools up and down the country left empty that can be tarted up and used to meet what is a very clear demand so no it isn't the same result.

it was an example .. same way that you can only give a few examples to support your argument

the Swedish model ..actually in part it has worked. There are some exceptions but most of the "it doesn't work" seems to have come following a interview with Per Thulberg ...and then seized upon by McNally and Holmlund in the UK

But , if you look at the reasons for the Swedish decline over the last twenty years the free schools choice was just many influences , in basket of influencers and certainly not the main one .

The Swedish school performance overall may have declined, relative to some other high achieving countries ,but actually not the performance of free schools within that system

And despite what he said in his BBC interview ..Thulberg accepts that free schools perform better than municipal schools.

so they may just work , as part of a whole picture .. hence why not wait and see

[TheDon]

Why would they put money into additional teachers when there isn't a shortage?

my lad's school has class sizes of 18 and also has a teacher assistant in the class ... i gather most schools are running at around 30 pupils ? i guess that would be why they need more teachers , to reduce class sizes ?

You can't reduce class sizes when there are no classrooms to put them in.

I can't think of a single school that has enough empty classrooms doing nothing that could be utilised to reduce current class sizes. If only we could do something drastic, like build new schools with more classrooms.