Bolitics The New Condem Government

[tonyh29]

I can't think of a single school that has enough empty classrooms doing nothing that could be utilised to reduce current class sizes. If only we could do something drastic, like build new schools with more classrooms.

There are 793,000 empty places in England's schools, official figures reveal

More than 400 secondary schools are a quarter empty

yeah lets go build some new schools ...

[TheDon]

I can't think of a single school that has enough empty classrooms doing nothing that could be utilised to reduce current class sizes. If only we could do something drastic, like build new schools with more classrooms.

There are 793,000 empty places in England's schools, official figures reveal

More than 400 secondary schools are a quarter empty

yeah lets go build some new schools ...

There are 25,000 schools in England. That works out at 32 places per school. Awesome levels of under fulfilment there. Or to put it another way, of the 7.9million school places only 10% are unoccupied.

How many of those 400 secondary schools that are a quarter empty are fit for purpose or in areas where spaces simply vastly outstrip demand for places?

Maybe the ConDems can bring in a "on your bike" scheme for school places too, encouraging those in social accommodation to move to areas with more abundant school places?

That's ignoring the fact that under subscription has nothing to do with the actual point, school places available does not = empty classrooms. It just means that in many schools the classroom sizes are smaller! Even in a school with 25% of their spaces empty I doubt you'd find many unused classrooms.

Utilising those unoccupied places will not reduce the average class size, it will increase it.

[TrentVilla]

I was imitating it for humour Tony not adopting it, there is a marked difference.

yeah when i do it you moan ( see last election thread) and when you do it it's funny :winkold:

Well you accused me of lacking humour if I remember correctly so I thought I'd give one of your jokes a go, yet you don't appear to find it funny when reversed. I can't win.

indeed you did and when I gave them you quoted your CV back at me

In response to your 'do you have kids', ' have you been to any school's questions.

look my reply was a little private joke at your expense based around your hot tips you gave me regarding the new County manager

Well not ever piece of information turns out to be right and not everything works out as indended, you should know that yourself.

my lad's school has class sizes of 18 and also has a teacher assistant in the class ... i gather most schools are running at around 30 pupils ? i guess that would be why they need more teachers , to reduce class sizes ?

Then your lad is very lucky and he will benefit from it but not many kids are so lucky. In infant schools and year groups the legal class size limit is 30 children but in Juniors there is no such limit and while I don't know the official average I would guess it falls between 30 and 33.

There is a direct link between class size and the level of learning there is no question in that, its why Labour put so much money into HTL's (higher level Teaching Assistant to support teachers and reduce the adult to child ratio in classes, something I'm led to believe is also under threat with the cuts.

Your suggestion that this ratio could be improved by more teachers while to an extent logical is flawed. Its flawed because there is no shortage of teachers, my misses recently had 70 teachers enquire about a position and 42 applications for a standard teaching vacancy.

Its flawed because not only is there not a lack of teachers but there is a lack of space. If you employ more teachers and split class sizes down, something which would have a significant impact on the learning of those children where are you planning on putting them may I ask?

Do you think schools up and down the country have lots of empty classrooms they would love to be using if only they could find a teacher? Believe me its not the case. Schools can't employ more teachers and split classes because they do not have the space.

The government have just cancelled the school building program so where are you thinking these new teachers are going to work? In the 60's the stuck temporary structures in play grounds made of wood and designed to last 25 years to cope with this problem, sadly many schools are still using these every day as they rot around them.

I also don't think you are aware of the budget implications of what you are suggesting, I say you because I'm yet to see anything to suggest this is anything other than your suggestion.

Schools are funded on pupil numbers with X amount per child per year, put simply the more kids the more money the school has in its budget. If a two form entry Primary school has two classes of 30 kids but then follows your idea (if it had the space) and employed a 3rd teacher and split the 60 kids 3 ways rather than 2 they would not receive a penny of additional budget.

So that means the school are suddenly in the region of between £22000 and £30000 worse off per year to fund that teachers salary.

So how is that going to be funded exactly?

There is no shortage of teachers other than in London which is to do with cost of living and nothing else, there is a shortage of classrooms.

I'm sure you will say Labour had 13 years and yes they did, they should have done more I would agree with that but at least they were trying. The previous Tory government didn't try and do anything about it and though its early days granted of the Cameron government it is fair to say the early signs are this one won't either.

it was an example .. same way that you can only give a few examples to support your argument

No it was a one off. Out of interest, I'll ask again, why did the previous Tory government shut that school?

I'm not sure how I'm lacking examples to support my point, there is a list of 700 odd schools that were planned to be redeveloped that now won't be.

so they may just work , as part of a whole picture .. hence why not wait and see

Indeed they might. I am though against the idea of putting state education into the private sector, cancelling new schools and allowing parents to open new ones doesn't to me sound like a good idea.

We will though have to see how that works out, fair enough. I don't though need to wait and see to know that cancelling much needed new school buildings and leaving kids in rotting sheds is a disgrace.

[Jon]

Can i summarise?

Tone = Tory supporter, come what may.

F*ck the evidence, that is how it is.

everything else is pointless.

Same with Ian, but just reverse it.

Some people only see what want at to see ....

[bickster]

The Tories (Blue) under the Witch started **** up the Education system

Bliar (the Red Nu Tories) just carried on and made it worse

So now the Tories (Blue) have to go one louder and ruin it some more

[tonyh29]

Can i summarise?

Tone = Tory supporter, come what may.

F*ck the evidence, that is how it is.

my my we are being self righteous tonight aren't we

however .. there is evidence to support Trent's point of view and there is also evidence to support my point of view ..

Interesting that on the election threads you actually stated you agreed with zero of the Tory policies , where as I agreed with a few labour ones ..which kinda menas I could just say to you .... Some people only see what they want to see ....

but hey ho

[TrentVilla]

The Tories (Blue) under the Witch started **** up the Education system

Bliar (the Red Nu Tories) just carried on and made it worse

So now the Tories (Blue) have to go one louder and ruin it some more

Sorry Bicks but point 2 is just incorrect.

[tonyh29]

Sorry Bicks but point 2 is just incorrect.

see Jon's answer above :-)

but point 3 is pure speculation at this point i'd like to point out :winkold:

[TrentVilla]

Sorry Bicks but point 2 is just incorrect.

see Jon's answer above :-)

but point 3 is pure speculation at this point i'd like to point out :winkold:

I judge policy and situations on their own merit I don't simply take a party line.

[Gringo]

Can i summarise?

Tone = Tory supporter, come what may.

F*ck the evidence, that is how it is.

everything else is pointless.

Same with Ian, but just reverse it.

Some people only see what want at to see ....

That's not strictly fair - I do rermember drat disagreeing with one proposed nulabour legislation - and tony actually agreed with him - I think tony's quote was "one privatisation too far". They were both agreeing how lame the policy on privatising royal mail was. Wonder how the two opinions vary now.

[tonyh29]

I judge policy and situations on their own merit I don't simply take a party line.

well funny enough so do I ..

[TrentVilla]

I judge policy and situations on their own merit I don't simply take a party line.

well funny enough so do I ..

Which is why I asked your views on the education budget cuts in the first place rather than make an assumption you'd support them because your a Tory.

[bickster]

The Tories (Blue) under the Witch started **** up the Education system

Bliar (the Red Nu Tories) just carried on and made it worse

So now the Tories (Blue) have to go one louder and ruin it some more

Sorry Bicks but point 2 is just incorrect.

Trent, it is absolutely correct from my point of view, they dumbed down education to otherwise unheard of depths of stupidity. They completely over subscribed higher education and made a degree of much less value than previous. Planning to build some schools at the end is not improving education, Labour **** up the entire education system it dumbed down an entire generation of children. It carried on and muddied further the Witches "opening up of higher education to the masses" bollocks, which in fact was purely designed to reduce youth unemployment and massage the figures. So many kids go into higher education at so called universities these days that really shouldn't be there. Theres a girl in our office who has just this week got a degree in criminology and I'm sorry but she's one of the dumbest people I know and she got it from a "university" that used to be a teacher training college and I'll bet she still couldn't spot a criminal if he lived next door to her (which given where she lives is a highly likely)

Most degrees these days should be sponsored by Andrex and GCSE's would just have had the G knocked off in my day. Labour is most definitely to blame for that

[TrentVilla]

Ah now, actually in regards to University I have to say I agree with you. I have a tendancy to not think beyond schools when talking about education athough technically university is further education.

[tonyh29]

I'm sorry but she's one of the dumbest people I know

and he's met me :-)

[bickster]

Ah now, actually in regards to University I have to say I agree with you. I have a tendancy to not think beyond schools when talking about education athough technically university is further education.

No Further Education is where most of these kids should be, instead they are in Higher Education but because GCSEs are easier than O Levels and A levels just aren't what they used to be, it makes it harder to spot which kids should go where by grade alone and they all go to the NU Uni's

And sorry but most of that is nown to Bliar, he did it worse than the Tories did

[TrentVilla]

I think I will call it a day on this one at this point.

[Gringo]

The Tories (Blue) under the Witch started **** up the Education system

Bliar (the Red Nu Tories) just carried on and made it worse

So now the Tories (Blue) have to go one louder and ruin it some more

Sorry Bicks but point 2 is just incorrect.

The red tory party introudced the legislation that have allowed the blue tory party to advance these policies. If you look at the number of private companies involved in education between 1997 and 2010 you see a massive rise. The same can be said of the health policy - blue labour brought in the private companies and now blue tory want to give them more (money) power.

Both parties have driven policy along the same lines - just with different velocity and different regulation / safeguards. The labour academy legislation was only passed with the support of dave webcam when the backbenchers baulked at such ideas.

We can say the same on regulation of the finance industry - or on whether to start illegal wars - led by nulabour, with blue tories happily compliant.

Both parties had the same policies, just different PR.

[Jon]

my my we are being self righteous tonight aren't we

yeah, that and drunk .... :winkold:

[drat01]

Tory MP too drunk to vote

A Kent MP has apologised for being drunk in the House of Commons and missing a vote on the Budget.

Mark Reckless said he did not feel it was appropriate to take part in the vote in the early hours of Wednesday because of the amount he had drunk.

The Conservative MP for Rochester and Strood told BBC Radio Kent: "I made a mistake. I'm really sorry about it."

Labour MP Hazel Blears said she returned to the library after it became "a bit lively" on the terrace.

Mr Reckless is one of 227 new MPs who started work at Westminster following the general election on 6 May.

Continue reading the main story

I think he's probably learnt his lesson

Hazel Blears

He said: "I'm terribly, terribly embarrassed. I apologise unreservedly and I don't plan to drink again at Westminster."

Mr Reckless denied claims that he fell asleep on the terrace or got a taxi back to his constituency.

He added: "I remember someone asking me to vote and not thinking it was appropriate, given how I was at the time.

"If I was in the sort of situation generally where I thought I was drunk I tend to go home.

"Westminster is a very special situation and all I can say... is given this very embarrassing experience I don't intend to drink at Westminster again."

Houses of Parliament The Commons terrace overlooks the Thames

Mr Reckless was having drinks on the night of the second reading of the Finance Bill, which lasted until 0230 BST on Wednesday.

Commons leader Sir George Young described it as the first "seriously late" sitting of the new parliamentary term.

Hazel Blears told Sky News on Sunday: "On Tuesday night, it was a hot night, and we all knew we were going to be there until two o'clock so I went out for a drink on the terrace.

"I was there until about half past 10. Then I thought this is getting a bit lively so I went back in the library and did a bit more correspondence and then I popped out and had a drink somewhere else with my friends."

She added: "I think the lesson is [that] there's a lot of new members in the House. He said, Mr Reckless, he said it was a bit like a lock-in so maybe he does that in his pub.

"But I think he's probably learnt his lesson."

What a great image these Tory MP's are showing - too pissed to even vote

Even the Mail are disgusted by their actions

Mail not happy with pissed up ConDem's

A shamed Tory MP has admitted he was too drunk to vote in the debate on the Budget after a night of debauched behaviour on the Commons terrace.

Former banker Mark Reckless was so inebriated that he fell to the floor of a Commons bar before the crucial vote in the early hours of the morning, before being bundled into a taxi home by fellow MPs.

Conservative chiefs also apologised after another MP, Sheryll Murray, was allegedly rude to a parliamentary official after she, too, had been drinking on the terrace overlooking the Thames.

The extraordinary scenes came during a six-hour drinking session that lasted until 2.30am on Wednesday, involving dozens of MPs and their aides.

Commons bars took a record £5,000 during the evening as taxpayer-subsidised Pimm’s, wine, beer and champagne flowed.

Witnesses said a ‘significant number’ of MPs who took part in the Budget vote were either drunk or under the influence of alcohol.

‘It was disgusting,’ said a female MP. ‘The chamber and the voting lobbies stank of booze and sweat.

'There we were, voting through the most drastic Budget in decades, and some MPs barely knew where they were, let alone what they were voting for. Some could hardly stand.’

A prominent Cabinet Minister was said to be slurring his speech.

Another MP said: ‘Several ­people were legless. The Tory newcomers were the worst, but Labour MPs were knocking it back, too.

'MPs old enough to know better were all over the Sloane Rangers who have come to work here as secretaries and researchers since David Cameron got in.’

Mr Reckless, the MP for Roch­ester, Kent, was among the most enthusiastic revellers. At one point, he fell on the floor and had to be helped to his feet.

Later, he struggled to open a bar door, repeatedly slamming it on his toe, apparently unaware his foot was in the way.

Some MPs roared with laughter as he blundered about. Eventually, others came to his aid.

Mr Reckless, an MP for just two months, told The Mail on Sunday: ‘I feel very embarrassed. It was a mistake I will not be repeating. I have learned my lesson.

'I don’t know what came over me. It was a long day and I’d had a very early breakfast meeting.’

He admitted he was drunk but said he could not recall what he had been drinking - or how much.

‘I normally have just one or two and know when to stop. I don’t know what happened. I don’t remember falling over.’

Sheryll Murray

Altercation: MP Sheryll Murray was said to have been involved in an exchange with a Commons doorkeeper after drinking on the terrace

Mr Reckless, 39, said the Tories’ decision to issue a strict three-line whip on the late-night debate - which meant all Conservative MPs had to stay to the end to vote - was partly to blame.

‘It was a bit like a lock-in,’ he said.

Asked when was the last time he had got drunk, he said: ‘A long time ago, I can’t remember.’

Mr Reckless claimed he decided not to take part in the 2.07am vote because of his drunken state.

‘I thought it would be inappropriate in the circumstances,’ he said.

However, other Tories dispute this version of events and say he was asleep on the terrace during the vote and received an official warning from his party the following day for ignoring the whip.

‘He didn’t decide not to vote - he missed it because he was asleep,’ said one.

‘It was bad enough him being drunk, but missing the vote was worse in the eyes of the whips. He got a severe rollicking the next morning.’

Mr Reckless was taken to the Commons exit by fellow MPs who eased him into a taxi, telling the driver to take him home to Rochester, 30 miles away, at a cost of £150.

‘I will certainly not be claiming it on my expenses,’ he said.

Mr Reckless, a passionate anti-EU campaigner, has a degree in politics, philosophy and economics at Oxford University and a business degree from the Columbia Business School in the U.S.

He worked for investment bank ­Warburg before training as a ­barrister at the College of Law. He was called to the bar in 2007.

Mr Reckless is also a member of the Kent Police Authority and has helped develop Tory law and order policies.

He was not the only MP whose conduct came under scrutiny on Tuesday.

South East Cornwall MP Sheryll Murray, who had also been drinking on the terrace, was reportedly involved in an exchange with a Commons doorkeeper who asked if she needed help when encountering her in a corridor.

Mrs Murray, 54, who is married to a Cornish trawlerman and, like Mr Reckless, entered the Commons in May, told The Mail on Sunday: ‘I don’t recall any altercation. I remember catching my breath.

'I’d had a couple of glasses of wine on the terrace but I wasn’t rude to anybody. If

I had been rude I would apologise.

'Somebody did say, “Are you all right?” But I don’t remember being under the influence

of alcohol.

‘There is a lesson to be learned from this: You don’t drink at all on the terrace.’

The following day, a Conser­vative official apologised to the doorkeeper.

Other unsubstantiated reports about the drunken antics of MPs who thronged the terrace appeared on the internet. One was said to be ‘drunk as a skunk’.

Some politicians said one reason for the boozy scenes was that new MPs are unused to late-night sittings now Commons debates are usually held at more ‘family-friendly’ hours.

One veteran MP said: ‘In the old days, late-night sittings were common and MPs could take their drink.

'Tuesday was a balmy night and the new lot got carried away with themselves. It was a novelty for them.’

Disgraceful especially with subject for the vote that they chose to act in this way