Bolitics The New Condem Government

[drat01]

How droll - I see again you cannot or will not defend your parties actions? Or even, god forbid, condem them. I wonder why that is?

Tell you what find me a post where you condemed anything labour ever did and then maybe we can have a proper debate on here ... Deal ?

So you cannot justify any of your parties policies?

As for condemning Labour policy - see HOL, see PR, see a few others. Don't worry I know on VT there are enough who were willing to make mountains out of any mole hill when it comes to Labour.

The simple facts are now the ConDem's are in power and they have to justify their actions.

[drat01]

You do know it was Labour that brought that law in don't you?

absolutely I do - and I remember the "outrage" and "attacks on civil liberties" that some on here said at the time. Their silence now and the actions of Boris et al are interesting - maybe the outrage has gone?

[drat01]

No, those aren't civil liberties either

Yes they are

Definition: Civil liberties are rights and freedoms that protect an individual from the state. Civil liberties set limits on government so that its members cannot abuse their power and interfere unduly with the lives of private citizens.

So when the state actions affect the rights on education and ability to provide that, its an attack.

[bickster]

The Gvmt was formed as a result of a merger of two parties

No really it wasn't, the only person who thinks this is you Ian. Its a coalition, it is a perfectly acceptable political process that happens in many places the world over. Labour were courting the exact same thing but failed to attract the Liberals to their side, for reasons we'll probably not know for some time but many things are rumoured

[snowychap]

Absolutely I do - but the point is - and certainly was pre-election by many on here that we vote for a PM and a Gvmt.

Well, forgive me for my brusqueness but that's their tough titties.

The last election was fought typically on a 3 party system with the odd exception for the Greens in Brighton and those in Scotland, NI and Wales who voted for local parties.

Though a very large subtext to the election was 'the hung parliament'.

Seriously, what did people think might happen if there were one? Or did they not actually give it much thought?

Again, tough titties if they didn't think through the potential consequences of how they voted.

The Gvmt was formed as a result of a merger of two parties,

No, it wasn't. The government is a coalition between two parties. They may well merge in future; people may defect one way or t'other but the narrative of a 'merger' is doing a disservice to actually discussing what is happening, what has happened and what may happen.

How many LibDems are now regretting their vote as it has resulted in such a right wing Gvmt and a big betrayal of the old LibDem values?

Probably loads.

There are also probably lots of people who voted Tory who don't want some of the things that the Lib Dems have tried to push for; a lot of people who voted Tory who don't like some of the proposals of Ken Clarke and a lot of Tories who are quite worried about the direction of the cuts, too.

[drat01]

See Gareth your defence is again - Oh Labour would have done this.

So this coalition is made up of what exactly? Two parties by chance? Have both of those parties committed to work as one party in Gvmt?, do they sit on the same benches in parliament? have they split and shared the jobs? This is a merger - the two parties are not separate entities in Gvmt, they act and legislate as one. You may not like the fact, but can you honestly see the old LibDem's voting down for example a Tory policy? Of course they will not.

[bickster]

No, those aren't civil liberties either

Yes they are

Definition: Civil liberties are rights and freedoms that protect an individual from the state. Civil liberties set limits on government so that its members cannot abuse their power and interfere unduly with the lives of private citizens.

So when the state actions affect the rights on education and ability to provide that, its an attack.

Cutting an education budget is not an erosion of civil liberties, the people are no more oppressed by the state as a result of the budget cut, they may be a little dumber and its again not something I agree with but calling it something it isn't really does the case against it no good at all.

Similarly making people redundant isn't an erosion of civil liberties

Your definition although copied and pasted from wikipedia isn't really relevant to what you are saying

[drat01]

Yes it is - you just cannot or will not see it.

Just because that definition - the first on google - came from wiki does not negate its validity. A civil liberty can be applied to many things, you are just looking at the whole ID card issue.

Another definition as you wont accept Wiki - # one's freedom to exercise one's rights as guaranteed under the laws of the country

# fundamental individual right protected by law and expressed as immunity from unwarranted governmental interference

OK is it a right to receive education? Is that education to be supplied by the state to a certain level? If that level is compromised by the actions of the state, is that an infringement? - anything that Gvmt or elected bodies do that affects these rights to the levels where the recipients will be negatively affected is an attack.

End of the day you don't think that way, I do. The simple facts are though that the attacks on these front line services will severely impact areas such as Health and Education

[bickster]

See Gareth your defence is again - Oh Labour would have done this.

So this coalition is made up of what exactly? Two parties by chance? Have both of those parties committed to work as one party in Gvmt?, do they sit on the same benches in parliament? have they split and shared the jobs? This is a merger - the two parties are not separate entities in Gvmt, they act and legislate as one. You may not like the fact, but can you honestly see the old LibDem's voting down for example a Tory policy? Of course they will not.

Ian someone has to say this, please stop talking utter rubbish

Labour mustn't have held those meetings with Clegg & Cable et al about a coalition government then, we must have imagined them.

Ian, that is what a coalition government is, get over it. It is not two parties merging, in fact this whole AV referendum shows us exactly that, as the two parties have differing opinions on the matter and will campaign against each other on the issue

I don't like what is happening but at least I can look at it objectively. WIll I trust the LibDems ever again? probably not, and I suspect they after 5 years of this will have damaged themselves for a good few years to come but that is their choice but I don't for one minute think they've merged with the Conservatives

[bickster]

Yes it is - you just cannot or will not see it.

Just because that definition - the first on google - came from wiki does not negate its validity. A civil liberty can be applied to many things, you are just looking at the whole ID card issue.

Another definition as you wont accept Wiki - # one's freedom to exercise one's rights as guaranteed under the laws of the country

# fundamental individual right protected by law and expressed as immunity from unwarranted governmental interference

OK is it a right to receive education? Is that education to be supplied by the state to a certain level? If that level is compromised by the actions of the state, is that an infringement? - anything that Gvmt or elected bodies do that affects these rights to the levels where the recipients will be negatively affected is an attack.

End of the day you don't think that way, I do. The simple facts are though that the attacks on these front line services will severely impact areas such as Health and Education

Ian no one ever had a right to a job, so losing a job isn't an attack on an individuals freedom and no one has removed anyones right to an education, if those had happened, they would be erosions of civil liberties, they haven't happened

[drat01]

Ian someone has to say this, please stop talking utter rubbish

Labour mustn't have held those meetings with Clegg & Cable et al about a coalition government then, we must have imagined them.

Ian, that is what a coalition government is, get over it. It is not two parties merging, in fact this whole AV referendum shows us exactly that, as the two parties have differing opinions on the matter and will campaign against each other on the issue

I don't like what is happening but at least I can look at it objectively. WIll I trust the LibDems ever again? probably not, and I suspect they after 5 years of this will have damaged themselves for a good few years to come but that is their choice but I don't for one minute think they've merged with the Conservatives

Thanks for the abuse

[drat01]

Ian no one ever had a right to a job, so losing a job isn't an attack on an individuals freedom and no one has removed anyones right to an education, if those had happened, they would be erosions of civil liberties, they haven't happened

Again missed the point - no one said the right to education, its about the levels and ability to provide it.

[bickster]

no abuse took place in that post

[bickster]

Ian no one ever had a right to a job, so losing a job isn't an attack on an individuals freedom and no one has removed anyones right to an education, if those had happened, they would be erosions of civil liberties, they haven't happened

Again missed the point - no one said the right to education, its about the levels and ability to provide it.

It really isn't me who is missing any points

[snowychap]

I think there is an argument that reducing an education budget is an attack on civil liberties but I don't think it would hold water, here.

It would require a state monopoly on education and no right to 'home school'. Are there barriers which affect the vast majority in regards to those two things? Yes, certainly.

Those barriers are not, however, imposed by the state.

[bickster]

I think there is an argument that reducing an education budget is an attack on civil liberties but I don't think it would hold water, here.

It would require a state monopoly on education and no right to 'home school'. Are there barriers which affect the vast majority in regards to those two things? Yes, certainly.

Those barriers are not, however, imposed by the state.

Yes I think thats exactly my point, though much better put

[leviramsey]

# fundamental individual right protected by law and expressed as immunity from unwarranted governmental interference

OK is it a right to receive education? Is that education to be supplied by the state to a certain level?

It certainly seems to me that if you adopt that definition of civil liberties, then the government spending anything on education or setting curriculum standards is an infringement of civil liberties...

[leviramsey]

Ian someone has to say this, please stop talking utter rubbish

Labour mustn't have held those meetings with Clegg & Cable et al about a coalition government then, we must have imagined them.

Ian, that is what a coalition government is, get over it. It is not two parties merging, in fact this whole AV referendum shows us exactly that, as the two parties have differing opinions on the matter and will campaign against each other on the issue

I don't like what is happening but at least I can look at it objectively. WIll I trust the LibDems ever again? probably not, and I suspect they after 5 years of this will have damaged themselves for a good few years to come but that is their choice but I don't for one minute think they've merged with the Conservatives

Thanks for the abuse

If there's an abusive bit in what I've quoted, it's boldfaced...

[avfc89]

I'm waiting for the modern and progressive ideas from the Government to appear, not something conjured up from the 19th Century and G.W Bush's blueprint in America. And please DC stop using "Bureaucracy" as an excuse to cut spending and regress efficiency.

[drat01]

If there's an abusive bit in what I've quoted, it's boldfaced...

Since when have you been a mod Levi? I must have missed that announcement