Big_John_10 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I have this distinct impression our opinions are falling on deaf ears on here.... Oh Dear Are you that arrogant that you think we should all be falling over ourselves to come and comment on what you think? Or that the manager should care? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC-Prideofbrum Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I posted in the match thread but i think it could go here also Only Man city have lost less away games than us so far. Only the 4 teams above us have won more away games than us so far. 5 teams have scored more goals than us away from home. 2 teams have let in less goals than us away from home. Performances may not always be pretty for the whole 90 minutes but i don't think we've reached panic stations just yet. Valid points, The Liverpool win was brilliant no doubt, but if you look at the teams we have played away: Liverpool, Blues, Burnley, Wolves, Blackburn, West Ham - We would of gone, 9 points minimum, although expect at least 11 points, although why isn't 15 a realistic target? 13 definately is something we should of aimed for. We've got 8 points, 6 of those points have come courtesy of our first two away games where we used the 4-5-1 formation and in the Blues game, we used it to tire Blues before bringing on Carew to give us that attacking impetus we needed. Since then we've been poor in every away performance playing 4-4-2 and have picked up 2 points from Wolves, Burnley, Blackburn, West Ham. Before those run of games, you'd of looked to be winning all 4, or at least 2/3 of them. It's also the performances, we haven't been unlucky in any of those, it's been poor performances and why I'm concerned is that we keep going 4-4-2 and it's failing. Had we started 4-4-2 and started away form poorly and O'Neill changed it to 4-5-1 in the last two games and we won those games, then I'd feel confident that are away form will be very good. That's the feeling I'm getting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Dogg Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 That doesn't make sense. Why would it be worthless? If this supposed shit football got us into 4th spot, then it shows its very effective and that the vast majority of the league cannot cope with it. the premier league is pretty poor these days though Is it? The Sky 4 dominate Europe, so dislodging one of them from their top four birth could not be argued away with such a daft argument. yeah it is the sky 4 have previously dominated europe... liverpool arent exactly leading the way this season the others dominate coz of the money. but its a bit telling that beyond them its rare an english club does anything in europe. the standard in the premier league just isnt that good I reckon if a manager of an English club in the the Europa league was arsed to take it seriously they'd go far. But inevitably they prioritise the league. Doing well in the Europa league is all about pride but in the Champions league it's pride and oodles of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I have this distinct impression our opinions are falling on deaf ears on here.... Oh Dear Are you that arrogant that you think we should all be falling over ourselves to come and comment on what you think? Or that the manager should care? If the manager read our posts ( Barry boots,Risso,Sting etc )there is every chance that we would now be challenging the top four with comfort. ok John.....Just joking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claretandblue77 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I posted in the match thread but i think it could go here also Only Man city have lost less away games than us so far. Only the 4 teams above us have won more away games than us so far. 5 teams have scored more goals than us away from home. 2 teams have let in less goals than us away from home. Performances may not always be pretty for the whole 90 minutes but i don't think we've reached panic stations just yet. Valid points, The Liverpool win was brilliant no doubt, but if you look at the teams we have played away: Liverpool, Blues, Burnley, Wolves, Blackburn, West Ham - We would of gone, 9 points minimum, although expect at least 11 points, although why isn't 15 a realistic target? 13 definately is something we should of aimed for. We've got 8 points, 6 of those points have come courtesy of our first two away games where we used the 4-5-1 formation and in the Blues game, we used it to tire Blues before bringing on Carew to give us that attacking impetus we needed. Since then we've been poor in every away performance playing 4-4-2 and have picked up 2 points from Wolves, Burnley, Blackburn, West Ham. Before those run of games, you'd of looked to be winning all 4, or at least 2/3 of them. It's also the performances, we haven't been unlucky in any of those, it's been poor performances and why I'm concerned is that we keep going 4-4-2 and it's failing. Had we started 4-4-2 and started away form poorly and O'Neill changed it to 4-5-1 in the last two games and we won those games, then I'd feel confident that are away form will be very good. That's the feeling I'm getting. i cant disagree with any of this, i feel the manager is going to stick with 442 away from home until it works regardless of how long it will take, its no coincidence we have a great record away from home when playing 451, the results prove that. but sadly we have a stubborn manager that will do it his way. i would like to know why when we were flying last year playing 451 and had won 7 away games on the bounce he felt he needed to change it, surely if it isnt broken then dont try and fix it. maybe when MoN has the next fans forum someone could ask him why he did what he did and still persist to do so. because for me its nothing short of stupidty to continue to play a way that obviously doesnt suit us and restricts our natural way of playing. MoN brought us the fast paced , counter attacking football, and as much as it wasnt the fancy football some would like, it was exciting and certainly played to our strengths. as last season away from home all our away games were like a white knuckle ride. i have followed the villa for the last 28 years and last year was the only time i can remember where i could go to games and not know what to expect. ie 2-0 down to arsenal and coming back and getting the equaliser at the death, everton away,arsenal away to name a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 That doesn't make sense. Why would it be worthless? If this supposed shit football got us into 4th spot, then it shows its very effective and that the vast majority of the league cannot cope with it. the premier league is pretty poor these days though Is it? The Sky 4 dominate Europe, so dislodging one of them from their top four birth could not be argued away with such a daft argument. yeah it is the sky 4 have previously dominated europe... liverpool arent exactly leading the way this season the others dominate coz of the money. but its a bit telling that beyond them its rare an english club does anything in europe. the standard in the premier league just isnt that good I reckon if a manager of an English club in the the Europa league was arsed to take it seriously they'd go far. But inevitably they prioritise the league. Doing well in the Europa league is all about pride but in the Champions league it's pride and oodles of money. City did last year and were outplayed by Hamburg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Dogg Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 That doesn't make sense. Why would it be worthless? If this supposed shit football got us into 4th spot, then it shows its very effective and that the vast majority of the league cannot cope with it. the premier league is pretty poor these days though Is it? The Sky 4 dominate Europe, so dislodging one of them from their top four birth could not be argued away with such a daft argument. yeah it is the sky 4 have previously dominated europe... liverpool arent exactly leading the way this season the others dominate coz of the money. but its a bit telling that beyond them its rare an english club does anything in europe. the standard in the premier league just isnt that good I reckon if a manager of an English club in the the Europa league was arsed to take it seriously they'd go far. But inevitably they prioritise the league. Doing well in the Europa league is all about pride but in the Champions league it's pride and oodles of money. City did last year and were outplayed by Hamburg I'm just saying it's possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Martin seems to have fixed the problem we had at home last season but I agree that away from home the 4-5-1 line up does seem to be the best system we have available to utilise the squad we have to select from. We got results away from home last season when we played no better than we have done this season. We faded from a position of strength as the season wore on. I back Martin to do everything possible to turn our away form around (which at present includes too many inept first half performances but not too many defeats), to avoid the late season burn out that cost us so much last year and to give us a team that we can continue to be proud of. What better manager have we had than Martin over the past 60 years? Ron Saunders, Big Ron, Graham Taylor or Joe Mercer? I think sometimes we don't recognise what he have until it is gone.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 What better manager have we had than Martin over the past 60 years? Ron Saunders, Big Ron, Graham Taylor or Joe Mercer? I think sometimes we don't recognise what he have until it is gone.... Brian Little, John Gregory.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 ... i'd happily take "shit" football if it gets us top 4 or better at season end ... why? whats the point? The point would be that the club and team would be back amongst the very best club sides in the Country. The point would be that it would be a further improvement in the fortunes of the club on the pitch. The point would be that we'd be able to compete, or try to compete in the Champions league (which might be a money spoilt abomination in some ways, but it's still the place where the "elite" clubs get to play) and as a result attract even better players. The point would be that (sadly in a way) we'd earn more money and that would give us a better chance of continues improvement again. The point would be that it would be a return for Randy and MO'N and the players for putting in effort, money, time and thought into what they seek to achieve. But the best point of all is it would make me very happy. We don't play "shit football" anyway. When we're on form we're exciting to watch, entertaining, scintillating and all those other adjectives. Like any team, when we're off form, or not quite on form, we're not nearly so enjoyable to watch, but we have gained some resilience to help see us through on those occasions. But that's just my view. If some people can't see the point, I think that's their loss, personally. absolutely spot on, Mr B. also ... I think sometimes we don't recognise what he have until it is gone.... I :nod: with this too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 What better manager have we had than Martin over the past 60 years? Ron Saunders, Big Ron, Graham Taylor or Joe Mercer? I think sometimes we don't recognise what he have until it is gone.... Brian Little, John Gregory.... Brian Little, for a time, was a very good manager. But then it started going wrong for him. John Gregory, for a time, was a slo a good manager, but then .... the difference with MON is that we are seeing continual improvement, something which should be lauded, not pilloried, IMHO. If you think the football is "shit" under MON, you must have a very selective JG memory, Mart! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brummybloke Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 What better manager have we had than Martin over the past 60 years? Ron Saunders, Big Ron, Graham Taylor or Joe Mercer? I think sometimes we don't recognise what he have until it is gone.... Brian Little, John Gregory.... Brian Little, for a time, was a very good manager. But then it started going wrong for him. John Gregory, for a time, was a slo a good manager, but then .... the difference with MON is that we are seeing continual improvement, something which should be lauded, not pilloried, IMHO. If you think the football is "shit" under MON, you must have a very selective JG memory, Mart! the biggest difference is MON has been given what ever he feels he needs financially where as the other managers havet, they were also more succssful in a shorter priod of time, imagine if they had been given the same sort of financial backing? anyway, that is all yesteryear now. as for MON, he can be good but there really is no need to keep trying to piss as many people off as he quite possibly can by changing a winning system or by changing a winning team to try and accomadate one of his favourites, at the expence of results and any possible momentum we may have picked up. that is my main gripe with him, that he feels he is beyond any kind of reproach by making basic **** ups which were easily avoidable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neilhawkes Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Last season we leaked goals and couldn't get a settled defence, that was the priority, that's been fixed. The midfield was ticking along, one class rated player leaving, time for the others to step up. Bought 2, one already excellent, but injured, the other could be the next big thing, but yet to be proven. Hasn't clicked yet, not helped by a bit of rebellion in the background........you do not rebel against such a manager and expect a clean slate. Yet to be fixed. The attack faltered badly, yet has some of the most feared players available, haven't found consistent form which must prove very frustrating both to the individuals themselves and the manager/team, as they all now what they are capable of. Yet to be fixed. Will not buy in bulk, for probably 2 reasons: 1. Would take too long for the team to gel, we have proven we can stay up there with the best, so take your time with specific targets and areas of concentration. 2. A couple of excellent additions more than often brings the best out in the remainder of your players. As this hasn't yet happened, more excellent additions will still be required......but see above about bulk buying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trajan Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 the biggest difference is MON has been given what ever he feels he needs financially where as the other managers havet, they were also more succssful in a shorter priod of time, imagine if they had been given the same sort of financial backing? Taking into account ‘football inflation’ do you not consider that the deals for the likes of Balaban, Merson, Stone, Boateng and Angel are at least equivalent to those of MON? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 What better manager have we had than Martin over the past 60 years? Ron Saunders, Big Ron, Graham Taylor or Joe Mercer? I think sometimes we don't recognise what he have until it is gone.... Brian Little, John Gregory.... Brian Little, for a time, was a very good manager. But then it started going wrong for him. John Gregory, for a time, was a slo a good manager, but then .... the difference with MON is that we are seeing continual improvement, something which should be lauded, not pilloried, IMHO. If you think the football is "shit" under MON, you must have a very selective JG memory, Mart! John Gregory achieved everything that O'Neill has to date at Villa, with the added bonus of decent cup runs. He also did it working for Ellis, and not Lerner. Cetrainly some of his football was less than entertaining towards the end, but I'd argue that he at least tried to get his team playing well, as the purchase of Merson showed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sting Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 3 haters out of 7! Jeez Risso, sting and Fran are quick off the mark. As a point of record 'CrackpotForeigner' i don't hate O'Neill. Indeed i find him entertaining with his funny manerisms before and after match interviews. I have however questioned many of his signings, which some have worked and others, well, have disappointingly failed miserably. You can probably say that of most managers, even the great Fergie and Wenger! I do however dislike the way O'Neill sets out our team to play and in my humble opinion, he doesn't make the best of who he has signed for one reason or another. When he finds a winning formular, he changes the team the following week and quite evidently has his 'favourites,' born out with his treatment of Reo-Coker! I also believe that with a more progressive thinking manager, we would have a better squad of players with more guile and technical ability with the amount of money O'Neill has been furnished with and just maybe, we might have been better in Cup and European matches as a consequence? Gained more success maybe? Nevertheless, it is more than fair to say that we have improved since O'Neill has become our manager, but then again, that would be the very least we would expect with the money spent! I just feel that O'Neill's system of play belongs more to the coaching book of the 1980-90s rather than being reflective of today's style of football. Thats why i believe O'Neill has taken us as far as he can and we do need a new manager who will instill a different type of system of play into our squad. I would like to see us playing a more diamond formation with the quality players to play that way. This would leave us less open through the middle and i dont think our wingers are good enough to carry a consistant threat, just as i don't think our central midfield partnership are good enough at the moment to allow us to play two out and out wingers! Only my humble opinion of course and as always, there will be many who will disagree with me. I just want the best for our club and although we are indeed in very safe hands with O'Neill, i think we could at, the very least, see more entertaining football coming from our team, with the same, or indeed, even more success! for what its worth on here, i can empathise with much of what you write.I too feel similar with your explanation of the Midfield & wingers. It seems to me the cm's are the scapegoats and the wide players get away with murder. I am not an advocate of removing O'Neill, but I am living in hope he will change his view. Many thanks for your considered reply 'Tro.' I don't disagree with much of what you said. I do, however, think he has built a decent squad but, like you, don't think he uses it to its maximum capability. I am not sure your diamond suggestion would work with our players BUT it could be worth a try. Anything has to be better than sticking with the same front 6 and same formation that we have for the last 5 or 6 away games. I can take losing/drawing with poor teams if I thought MON was trying to turn it around and find a solution to our poor performances. He didn't for the last 15 games of last season and he hasn't done for our away games this season. It feels like groundhog day to me! Hi 'barry'sboots.' Totally agree with you saying that we may not have the players to play in a diamond formation. This was actually what i was getting at and to play this way we would need to buy possibly two quality midfielders with Petrov and Sidwell going out the goodbye door! There is no doubt that both Young and Milner are good players. As i have stated elsewhere, for me, Milner is overated and although he gives 100% in every game, does he however, provide a consistant threat as a right out and out winger should do? In my opinion he does not. He neither has the pace, or the guile to do exactly that. I believe Young should be played at the forward point of a diamond formation rather than as a left winger. Whatever tricks he may have as a left winger, have indeed now been noted by oposing coaches and nulified! It has been no surprise to me that he is less effective this season and it is my belief that he will remain so, until his position in the team changes. It is the main reason why we struggle to score from open play when teams don't hold a high line against us! Would love to see O'Neill sell Petrov, Sidwell and Milner to help purchase two quality midfielders so that we would become less reliant on our mainly inafective wingers and play a more progressive passing game with a creative edge to our play. Won't happen though in O'Neill's Villa Park tenure! :cry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry'sboots Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 i would like to know why when we were flying last year playing 451 and had won 7 away games on the bounce he felt he needed to change it, surely if it isnt broken then dont try and fix it. He only went to 4-5-1 because JC got injured and he didn't want to play Marlon. I think it was the arrival of Emile that saw him revert back to 4-4-2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDuck Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Would love to see O'Neill sell Milner Yeah great idea. We should get rid off crap like Collins & Warnock while we're at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Dogg Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Of all the things you say Sting, the Milner criticism is the silliest. I'd say you are completely alone in that opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Milner is a man highly rated by one of the best managers of all time in Capello a man that has managed some of the best in the world and sting thinks he isnt good enough. I know who i trust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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