The Spanish Football/la Liga Thread

[tomzep]

Puyol showed why they are (he is) average, Benzema not far behind

Puyol is a Catalan Jamie Carragher all heart no talent. Collins and Dunne could play Barcelona and they would still win the league.

as for Benzema he is a very average player and not Real Madrid standard

[Stevo985]

thanks for the response. annoyingly i play saturdays, don't get to see us half the time and with Villa being ridic shit under McLeish, it's hard to watch. only team i can see on weekly basis is barca and i have nowhere else to just write an opinion. previous seasons with villa i had opinions but this year, it's just hard to talk about.

although the post may not interest you or even anyone on the forum quite frankly, what was the point in your response? just seems pathetic. it's just an opinion within the spanish la liga. no need to respond for it. :|

Voinjama gets bored if he has to read more than a paragraph without seeing any pictures of really ugly women.

[Voinjama]

Anyway, my honest opinion. Real set up not to differently to 5-0 loss last year, I honestly believe R.Madrid were there for the taking.

For starters, the 3-4-3 played right into the hands of Real Madrid. Ronaldo hasn't been at his best when he's played against the likes of Alves, largely ineffective in fact, Ronaldo didn't really have to move back all game as Puyol at RB/CB of the three was never going to support forward which meant Ronaldo could break and get in 1 on 1 situations vs Puyol, only one winner. Ronaldo is a great player, 2nd best in the world IMO but he must have been laughing with how easy the game was made for him. Real Madrid biggest threat counter-attacking out wide and Barca simply played into a system that suited them, far too many numbers down the middle of the pitch without any sort of penetration.

I watched the 5-0 game back, the key to that game is how they stretched Barca as a team and how they worked the most important areas, (the madrid back line) tonight, defending Barca is easy.

Messi always drop deep, he's the best but he's containable if he has to do it all. Last year, he drops deep but both Pedro and Villa are already starting on the CB's and FB's shoulders, it means they can't step up and move up into Messi, leaving him more space.

Barca's midfield runs are easier to track if they haven't already got players they are looking at. for example, Busquets, Thiago, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi were all basically at times across the same lines with Tello and Alves flanks. The Real Madrid CB's had nothing to mark, the Real FB's didn't really have to tuck in a great deal becuse there was no players looking to play on the shoulder which meant Tello/Alves were denied space and firstly, Tello isn't good enough and secondly Alves is far better from deep, not playing high and beating men in tight spaces. Whenver there was runners, even good late runs, although I don't think the passes were of the best quality from Barca, Real Madrid always could react quick enough to stop the threat.

Last year for much of the game, Pedro and Villa were constantly playing inside the full back, the full backs were getting dragged inside, the CB's were constantly aware and it also left a lot of space for both Alves and Abidal who in that game shared the duties of going forward, while the other tucked around for the counter attack, Real that game had to tuck in to secure themselves but there was always an out ball out on the flanks because Madrid's wingers, especially Ronaldo didn't track back for parts (tactics not being critical) and the times he did track back, well they've been successful in pushing him back defending his own box not ready for the counter.

Along with that, quite simply the touch, passing, finishing and ideas weren't at that clinical level which doesn't help but quite frankly I just don't understand why he don't play a normal back 4 (adriano, alves and then pick two out of masch/puyol/pique) and then busquets, iniesta, xavi middle with sanchez/pedro either flank and Messi dropping deep.

People argue that Messi is the product of a brilliant Barca system and passing game which without doubt helps in many occasions but you could argue last night that was the downfall. As soon as Sanchez come on, the game changed a little, his runs were far more central, Messi was able to run with the ball in good areas without facing a line of defenders, the movement of likes of Sanchez allowed Messi the space to drive into areas, (which happened for the goal as Pepe got slightly dragged by Sanchez movement) where was the options he had? we saw the Xavi chance and 1000x times this season, he can find the right pass. in fact, the goal and their best other chance (xaxi) both game from his plays so although he's not at his best, he's still chief creator which is also their biggest problem. 63 goals, 26 assists this season. i dare to even look at the stats of those closest, i'd have a guess at around fabregas with 16-17 goals and similar assists to find closest near him and he hasn't even scored in about 3 months! way over reliant on Messi for both scoring and creating especially recently (scored in 14 in 15 before last two games). Villa and Pedro scored nearly 50 between them last year, they haven't had that this year.

at times midfielders got beyond him but given the fact they had no one else to mark it was easy to spot runs and watch dangers, if they have Sanchez like Villa did, playing inside full backs making clever runs suddenly they have to think. It didn't matter if Messi went past anyone tonight because when he did, nothing was in front of him apart Real Madrid shirts apart from Alves/Tello who were stationed very wide which meant little penetration.

both full backs and wide forward would have give Real Madrid a real dilemna tonight i think and given the fact they didn't press at all high up the pitch, I really believe they were there for the taking but the Barca game played into their hands. basically i thought Barca played a system which had zero penetration and left them self exposed. I think the three at the back is good (if teams drop deep only) if they play Fabregas and Sanchez and another wide forward like Cuenca/Pedro/Tello whatever. so it's basically like a 3-3-4 with players constantly driving into spaces beyond the defence and pushing them back OR if the other team tries to press really high, then it's dangerous but a similar tactic today could work because in a game where pressure is high, more control in the midfield and naturally because R.M presses higher, it gives Messi more space in dangerous areas so they don't need as many runners off him but today it was too much like;

Tello-----X-------X---------X---------X---Alves

-----------X--------X--------------

---Iniesta------X------Messi-------------------------

----X------Thiago, Xavi------------------X-

-------------Busq---X------------------------

Adriano------Masch----------Puyol-----------

which quite frankly meant there was **** all danger to deal with and everytime they got the ball, they could break really well with great players.

anyway, i'm just annoyed and back from a night out so sorry if not much makes great sense but in my own mind I know what i'm thinking (could do with being good with graphic shit to make my point)

Anyway real deserve title. Consistent, similar team all year, not over reliance on a single player but quality when it matters, when real needed Ronaldo, he stepped up, when Ronaldo needed Real, others scored the goals. when Barca needed Messi, he scored, when Messi needed Barca...... well yeah. too much rotation (i mean, Tello today, really?), slightly unlucky with injuries as well but not really an excuse given talent.

Just hope they bounce back in Champions League and go again next year, they have the potential.

edit; also i don't think the system suits Xavi a great deal, it cuts off a lot of passing lanes forcing him simple, also a reason i think he's been taken off a lot more recently, if xavi hasn't got options available to him, he doesn't have THAT much to offer. he was sacraficed vs levante and also tonight but quite frankly if there is not much forward of him or the players forward (alves/tello vs real madrid) there isn't real that much available to him. teams are letting him have the ball at the moment, he might be brilliant but without real options, he's ineffective at what you play him for.

:yawn:

thanks for the response. annoyingly i play saturdays, don't get to see us half the time and with Villa being ridic shit under McLeish, it's hard to watch. only team i can see on weekly basis is barca and i have nowhere else to just write an opinion. previous seasons with villa i had opinions but this year, it's just hard to talk about.

although the post may not interest you or even anyone on the forum quite frankly, what was the point in your response? just seems pathetic. it's just an opinion within the spanish la liga. no need to respond for it. :|

It just seems you go into too much detail, it is a bit geeky, perhaps if you have that much time and enjoy writing that much you should write for a magazine or paper and get paid for it. You have great football knowledge, that is clear from your posts, but sometimes I think you go into too much depth.

[zak]

Anyway, my honest opinion. Real set up not to differently to 5-0 loss last year, I honestly believe R.Madrid were there for the taking.

For starters, the 3-4-3 played right into the hands of Real Madrid. Ronaldo hasn't been at his best when he's played against the likes of Alves, largely ineffective in fact, Ronaldo didn't really have to move back all game as Puyol at RB/CB of the three was never going to support forward which meant Ronaldo could break and get in 1 on 1 situations vs Puyol, only one winner. Ronaldo is a great player, 2nd best in the world IMO but he must have been laughing with how easy the game was made for him. Real Madrid biggest threat counter-attacking out wide and Barca simply played into a system that suited them, far too many numbers down the middle of the pitch without any sort of penetration.

I watched the 5-0 game back, the key to that game is how they stretched Barca as a team and how they worked the most important areas, (the madrid back line) tonight, defending Barca is easy.

Messi always drop deep, he's the best but he's containable if he has to do it all. Last year, he drops deep but both Pedro and Villa are already starting on the CB's and FB's shoulders, it means they can't step up and move up into Messi, leaving him more space.

Barca's midfield runs are easier to track if they haven't already got players they are looking at. for example, Busquets, Thiago, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi were all basically at times across the same lines with Tello and Alves flanks. The Real Madrid CB's had nothing to mark, the Real FB's didn't really have to tuck in a great deal becuse there was no players looking to play on the shoulder which meant Tello/Alves were denied space and firstly, Tello isn't good enough and secondly Alves is far better from deep, not playing high and beating men in tight spaces. Whenver there was runners, even good late runs, although I don't think the passes were of the best quality from Barca, Real Madrid always could react quick enough to stop the threat.

Last year for much of the game, Pedro and Villa were constantly playing inside the full back, the full backs were getting dragged inside, the CB's were constantly aware and it also left a lot of space for both Alves and Abidal who in that game shared the duties of going forward, while the other tucked around for the counter attack, Real that game had to tuck in to secure themselves but there was always an out ball out on the flanks because Madrid's wingers, especially Ronaldo didn't track back for parts (tactics not being critical) and the times he did track back, well they've been successful in pushing him back defending his own box not ready for the counter.

Along with that, quite simply the touch, passing, finishing and ideas weren't at that clinical level which doesn't help but quite frankly I just don't understand why he don't play a normal back 4 (adriano, alves and then pick two out of masch/puyol/pique) and then busquets, iniesta, xavi middle with sanchez/pedro either flank and Messi dropping deep.

People argue that Messi is the product of a brilliant Barca system and passing game which without doubt helps in many occasions but you could argue last night that was the downfall. As soon as Sanchez come on, the game changed a little, his runs were far more central, Messi was able to run with the ball in good areas without facing a line of defenders, the movement of likes of Sanchez allowed Messi the space to drive into areas, (which happened for the goal as Pepe got slightly dragged by Sanchez movement) where was the options he had? we saw the Xavi chance and 1000x times this season, he can find the right pass. in fact, the goal and their best other chance (xaxi) both game from his plays so although he's not at his best, he's still chief creator which is also their biggest problem. 63 goals, 26 assists this season. i dare to even look at the stats of those closest, i'd have a guess at around fabregas with 16-17 goals and similar assists to find closest near him and he hasn't even scored in about 3 months! way over reliant on Messi for both scoring and creating especially recently (scored in 14 in 15 before last two games). Villa and Pedro scored nearly 50 between them last year, they haven't had that this year.

at times midfielders got beyond him but given the fact they had no one else to mark it was easy to spot runs and watch dangers, if they have Sanchez like Villa did, playing inside full backs making clever runs suddenly they have to think. It didn't matter if Messi went past anyone tonight because when he did, nothing was in front of him apart Real Madrid shirts apart from Alves/Tello who were stationed very wide which meant little penetration.

both full backs and wide forward would have give Real Madrid a real dilemna tonight i think and given the fact they didn't press at all high up the pitch, I really believe they were there for the taking but the Barca game played into their hands. basically i thought Barca played a system which had zero penetration and left them self exposed. I think the three at the back is good (if teams drop deep only) if they play Fabregas and Sanchez and another wide forward like Cuenca/Pedro/Tello whatever. so it's basically like a 3-3-4 with players constantly driving into spaces beyond the defence and pushing them back OR if the other team tries to press really high, then it's dangerous but a similar tactic today could work because in a game where pressure is high, more control in the midfield and naturally because R.M presses higher, it gives Messi more space in dangerous areas so they don't need as many runners off him but today it was too much like;

Tello-----X-------X---------X---------X---Alves

-----------X--------X--------------

---Iniesta------X------Messi-------------------------

----X------Thiago, Xavi------------------X-

-------------Busq---X------------------------

Adriano------Masch----------Puyol-----------

which quite frankly meant there was **** all danger to deal with and everytime they got the ball, they could break really well with great players.

anyway, i'm just annoyed and back from a night out so sorry if not much makes great sense but in my own mind I know what i'm thinking (could do with being good with graphic shit to make my point)

Anyway real deserve title. Consistent, similar team all year, not over reliance on a single player but quality when it matters, when real needed Ronaldo, he stepped up, when Ronaldo needed Real, others scored the goals. when Barca needed Messi, he scored, when Messi needed Barca...... well yeah. too much rotation (i mean, Tello today, really?), slightly unlucky with injuries as well but not really an excuse given talent.

Just hope they bounce back in Champions League and go again next year, they have the potential.

edit; also i don't think the system suits Xavi a great deal, it cuts off a lot of passing lanes forcing him simple, also a reason i think he's been taken off a lot more recently, if xavi hasn't got options available to him, he doesn't have THAT much to offer. he was sacraficed vs levante and also tonight but quite frankly if there is not much forward of him or the players forward (alves/tello vs real madrid) there isn't real that much available to him. teams are letting him have the ball at the moment, he might be brilliant but without real options, he's ineffective at what you play him for.

:yawn:

thanks for the response. annoyingly i play saturdays, don't get to see us half the time and with Villa being ridic shit under McLeish, it's hard to watch. only team i can see on weekly basis is barca and i have nowhere else to just write an opinion. previous seasons with villa i had opinions but this year, it's just hard to talk about.

although the post may not interest you or even anyone on the forum quite frankly, what was the point in your response? just seems pathetic. it's just an opinion within the spanish la liga. no need to respond for it. :|

It just seems you go into too much detail, it is a bit geeky, perhaps if you have that much time and enjoy writing that much you should write for a magazine or paper and get paid for it. You have great football knowledge, that is clear from your posts, but sometimes I think you go into too much depth.

Well, I enjoyed it!

[Voinjama]

Great.

[BOF]

Something for DVIN to get fwapping to

[Zatman]

Valdes had another shocker last night. Took out Pique, sliced a couple of clearances and a pathetic effort to take ball of Torres (most would have took the red for the team and conceded a free kick).

Surely Pepe Reina would jump at chance to rejoin Barcelona

[Voinjama]

I rate Valdes, when people say he is poor, it is just in comparison to the other superstars in the Barca team.

I think the only goalkeepers in the Premier League better are Hart, Krul, Reina and possibly Cech

[Zatman]

Given is a 100 times better than Valdes who is no better than Manuel Almunia

[rhyscartwright_avfc]

I rate Valdes, but he has been poor recently. He was at fault for Drogba's goal at Stamford Bridge. He was at fault for both goals in el Clasico IMO. I can't say he was fault last night though, what was he supposed to do?

[Voinjama]

Valdes is much better then Almunia.

Valdes is Spains number 3. So he is keeping Almunia, Palop and De Gea out of the squad.

[Zatman]

Has been Barcelona No.1 for nearly 9 years and has 7 caps. I know Casillas is awesome and Reina good but i was so good would have got more friendly caps

[GarethRDR]

The problem for Valdés (and this is something that tends to seperate the wheat from the chaff as far as the art of goalkeeping is concerned) is that more often than not, he has bugger all to do most games. Maintaining your level of concentration is absolutely critical, and is something Valdés seems to struggle with at times (that Juninho free-kick from a few years back springs to mind); he's in the one position where you will be punished each and every time for such lapses. He does excel at that pseudo-sweeper role though.

[Voinjama]

Has been Barcelona No.1 for nearly 9 years and has 7 caps. I know Casillas is awesome and Reina good but i was so good would have got more friendly caps

But in your first sentence you sum up why he is not that bad. If he can be number 1 goalkeeper for a top team like Barcelona for 9 years he cant be that bad. We are talking one of the best club sides in the world. If he was no good, Barcelona would have replaced. And most goalkeepers would go there, because they are such a big club.

[GarethRDR]

what was he supposed to do?

Thinking about it, that crazy SOB Zatman's suggestion isn't completely without merit; if he manages to clatter Torres before he reaches the box - taking the red card and free-kick - and if Barcelona then manage to defend the resulting free-kick, it's even-steven (albeit now with an outfield player in goal, but hey the game's nearly up anyway) for the dying minutes and they're still in with the slimmest of slim chances of maybe getting a goal. Like, über-slim. But still better than no chance.

[Stevo985]

Valdes had another shocker last night. Took out Pique, sliced a couple of clearances and a pathetic effort to take ball of Torres (most would have took the red for the team and conceded a free kick).

Surely Pepe Reina would jump at chance to rejoin Barcelona

I disagree. A lot.

Maybe he sliced a few clearances, but that's the price they are willing to pay to have a goalkeeper who is such a good footballer, which Valdes undoubtedly is.

The amount of times he keeps possession for the team by playing those balls on the ground rather than hoofing like a lot of keepers would far outweigh the odd times he slices it. Keeping the ball is defensive, and Valdes contributes defensivley by doing this, it's his job. It's the same with Vorm at Swansea (and Swansea's defenders in general)

The Torres thing, it was 1 on 1 where the striker had half the pitch to plan what he was going to do. Any striker worth their salt would put that away. To assign any sort of blame to Valdes there is frankly hilarious.

I'll give you the Pique thing. And that there is Valdes' main weakness. he's overly dramatic. He's all spectacular dives and crazy punches. He's not a goalkeeper's goalkeeper.

But he's not bad. This season hasn't been his best but previously he's been excellent. To call his performance last night a shocker is baffling.

[Zatman]

even teh Drogba shot from 65 yards he made a meal out of as well

[GarethRDR]

Maybe he sliced a few clearances, but that's the price they are willing to pay to have a goalkeeper who is such a good footballer, which Valdes undoubtedly is.

That's the crux of it, really. Valdés could probably afford to be a worse shot-stopper then he actually is and they'd still persevere with him, as his ability on the ball and general distribution suits the team's setup and approach perfectly.

[Stevo985]

even teh Drogba shot from 65 yards he made a meal out of as well

Exactly my point. He stopped it, but unecessarily spectacularly.

That's what annoys me about him.

Incidentally, I think it's particularly Spanish. Casillas, De Gea, Valdes, Cannizares etc are/were all guilty of it

[Stevo985]

Maybe he sliced a few clearances, but that's the price they are willing to pay to have a goalkeeper who is such a good footballer, which Valdes undoubtedly is.

That's the crux of it, really. Valdés could probably afford to be a worse shot-stopper then he actually is and they'd still persevere with him, as his ability on the ball and general distribution suits the team's setup and approach perfectly.

Absolutely. And the fact he's Catalonian of course.

But yeah, they need a goalkeeper like that.

Again, it was the same with Vorm. Swansea bought him because of his footballing skills. It just so happens he's turned out to be pretty **** good at everything else too.