High Line ..Pros and Cons

[villa4europe]

to be fair to them in the first minute when we played son offside but the ball was played to udogie instead I thought here we go but it once again worked a treat - I'm still convinced that's how you beat it, you leave the man who is offside as inactive and have a deeper runner overtake him during the inevitable split second pause after we've stepped up

surprisingly only 5 offsides, 3 of them were goals chalked off (4th was ours)

[sne]

Best I can find we've managed to catch our opponents offside 63 times so far this season in the PL. Next after us is Spurs on 40. Not sure if the games this weekend are included in this stat.

Safe to say the tactic is working. Been 2 games where it hasn't but that will be the case for any tactic and most teams. Way to beat it is as mentioned the second runner, especially with the offside interpretations being what they are.

			Performance													Aerial Duels
Squad	# Pl	90s	CrdY	CrdR	2CrdY	Fls	Fld	Off ▼	Crs	Int	TklW	PKwon	PKcon	OG	Recov	Won	Lost	Won%
vs Aston Villa	23	13.0	32	2	1	165	132	63	185	102	127	0	3	3	663	117	105	52.7
vs Tottenham	24	13.0	42	3	2	198	146	40	221	124	146	2	0	3	669	131	110	54.4
vs Fulham	23	12.0	21	0	0	129	126	33	173	99	119	3	0	1	637	143	141	50.4
vs Everton	23	13.0	24	0	0	121	152	28	212	93	109	3	0	0	713	213	231	48.0
vs Sheffield Utd	27	13.0	20	1	0	116	147	28	271	89	128	1	2	3	727	248	193	56.2
vs Manchester City	25	13.0	45	1	0	148	112	26	117	103	106	1	4	0	538	85	101	45.7
vs Liverpool	22	13.0	27	1	1	137	154	24	209	129	156	0	4	2	671	146	182	44.5
vs Burnley	25	13.0	31	1	0	135	137	23	225	86	149	2	1	0	684	217	181	54.5
vs Chelsea	24	13.0	38	3	2	159	154	23	184	131	137	2	5	1	631	108	151	41.7
vs Luton Town	23	13.0	22	2	1	140	141	23	268	85	119	1	2	1	698	241	229	51.3
vs Crystal Palace	22	13.0	33	1	1	159	142	20	286	104	142	2	1	0	677	177	189	48.4
vs Newcastle Utd	29	13.0	39	2	1	167	149	20	169	109	140	0	3	0	659	137	139	49.6
vs Arsenal	23	13.0	34	1	1	139	113	18	121	103	136	0	6	1	550	174	169	50.7
vs Brentford	25	13.0	29	3	3	151	136	18	269	96	100	1	2	1	621	216	234	48.0
vs Brighton	26	13.0	40	2	2	176	143	18	176	120	150	2	2	2	591	117	133	46.8
vs West Ham	21	13.0	17	0	0	140	130	18	287	80	114	4	1	1	647	224	202	52.6
vs Manchester Utd	26	13.0	34	1	0	125	130	17	217	159	122	1	2	0	691	164	153	51.7
vs Bournemouth	25	13.0	33	1	0	138	159	16	201	101	159	3	0	0	683	204	150	57.6
vs Nott'ham Forest	27	13.0	30	3	0	121	143	15	297	101	113	2	1	0	664	206	225	47.8
vs Wolves	21	12.0	32	1	0	143	160	13	241	100	138	2	0	1	648	105	152	40.9

https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/misc/Premier-League-Stats

[villa89]

13 minutes ago, sne said:

Best I can find we've managed to catch our opponents offside 63 times so far this season in the PL. Next after us is Spurs on 40. Not sure if the games this weekend are included in this stat.

Safe to say the tactic is working. Been 2 games where it hasn't but that will be the case for any tactic and most teams. Way to beat it is as mentioned the second runner, especially with the offside

I'm shocked more teams aren't having midfielders break from deep against us. To me it seems obvious how to cause us huge problems when we have slow centre backs playing so high up the pitch. 

[sne]

2 hours ago, villa89 said:

I'm shocked more teams aren't having midfielders break from deep against us. To me it seems obvious how to cause us huge problems when we have slow centre backs playing so high up the pitch. 

We are extremely well drilled and are executing it almost perfectly most games. And on the times our opponents manages to beat it Emi Martinez has been very much on his toes to make saves or beat their runner to the ball.

When it doesn't work the goals will of course look very "easy" and it will happen. Worth it thou.

Edited November 27, 2023 by sne

[CVByrne]

What games have we lost because of failed offside trap? Neither of the goals Forest scored were because of it, one was the ball carried down the left and a great shot from outside the box. The 2nd was Emi howler. 

Liverpools first goal and 3rd goals were from corners. Their 2nd was beating our offside trap but it was Salah on the right touchline and his pace vs Digne more than anything. 

Newcastles first goal was from play inside our final 1/3rd, their 2nd was a well worked set piece and some good off the ball shenanigans by holding Cash, their 3rd was a bad error by Konsa. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by CVByrne

[fightoffyour]

The only "cons" are 1) the perception that we're conceding big chances / offside goals when the trap is in fact by design and executed brilliantly for the most part and 2) having to wait for the flag to go up is nerve-wracking and could possibly lead to injuries even though that phase play is effectively over.

[duke313]

3 hours ago, fightoffyour said:

The only "cons" are 1) the perception that we're conceding big chances / offside goals when the trap is in fact by design and executed brilliantly for the most part and 2) having to wait for the flag to go up is nerve-wracking and could possibly lead to injuries even though that phase play is effectively over.

It's genius when you think about it, Emery is basically exploiting the fact VAR will check the tight offsides, and in most cases they are ruled out.  Not good for the blood pressure mind you 

[Pinebro]

51 minutes ago, duke313 said:

It's genius when you think about it, Emery is basically exploiting the fact VAR will check the tight offsides, and in most cases they are ruled out.  Not good for the blood pressure mind you 

You can play it safe like David Moyes and hit the ceiling at 6th-7th.

We have to be prepared to take risks to get to the next level.

[duke313]

7 minutes ago, Pinebro said:

You can play it safe like David Moyes and hit the ceiling at 6th-7th.

We have to be prepared to take risks to get to the next level.

And surely, it's just a co-incidence that they are looking into changing the offside rule now little old Villa are making a mockery out of it at the expense of the "Big 6" 

[TRO]

On 14/11/2023 at 17:24, DJBOB said:

Another pro for using the high line even when leading 3-1 in the 80th minute is that we avoid the bombardment opposing teams can occasionally pull off if we drop deep and just defend in a low block. In the 12 league matches, only 4 goals have been scored against us in the last 20 minutes. Newcastle with two when we were trying to get back into it, the OG vs Luton and Jimenez at 70'.

How many times over the decades have we seen Villa hanging on by a thread as the opponent has everyone in the box trying to get back into the match or get an equalizer? With the high line, we keep that pressure off, even though it's a heart in mouth moment every time an opponent is running through, waiting for the flag to go up.

Villa are 3rd in the league for opponents shots against, trailing behind only City and Arsenal. We do not allow teams to pin us back.

But...on the reverse, we are 17th in the league on Shots on Target % and 15th in the league in goals/shot against.

Unai has decided to gamble this season on the offside trap, limiting opponent's chances but when they get one - it's going to be a high quality shot.

It's a really noteworthy point....thought provoking

Edited November 27, 2023 by TRO

[Pinebro]

8 minutes ago, duke313 said:

And surely, it's just a co-incidence that they are looking into changing the offside rule now little old Villa are making a mockery out of it at the expense of the "Big 6" 

I hate Arsene Wenger man

[TheStagMan]

On 25/11/2023 at 20:13, cheltenham_villa said:

But we play a high line in order to apply attacking pressure high up the pitch and we score more goals than we defend. So our attackers benefit more than our defenders suffer. 

Agreed - under this rule, Ollie would be into 30+ goals most seasons!

[WHY]

Pro - Only Man City have won more PL games this calendar year than us playing the high line

Con - None, we win more games than we lose playing it. 

 

 

[TheLegendOfLeonBailey31]

1 hour ago, duke313 said:

And surely, it's just a co-incidence that they are looking into changing the offside rule now little old Villa are making a mockery out of it at the expense of the "Big 6" 

I hadn't heard that....  what are they proposing to change about the current way offside is handled?  The only REALLY tight offsides yesterday was Watkins goal...  

[ChicagoVillan1983]

Pro's - seeing opposition fans sinking when they have multiple goals per game disallowed... Seeing the most exiting brand of football I've every seen Villa play in 30 years of supporting them. 

Con's - Mrs isn't a fan of the stains on my boxers

Edited November 27, 2023 by ChicagoVillan1983

[duke313]

1 hour ago, TheLegendOfLeonBailey31 said:

I hadn't heard that....  what are they proposing to change about the current way offside is handled?  The only REALLY tight offsides yesterday was Watkins goal...  

Not sure of the finer details, but Arsene Wenger has proposed there be daylight between players before it’s off side. So it would mean a player would be onside unless the majority of their body is in front of the defender.

[ChicagoVillan1983]

7 minutes ago, duke313 said:

Not sure of the finer details, but Arsene Wenger has proposed there be daylight between players before it’s off side. So it would mean a player would be onside unless the majority of their body is in front of the defender.

That would totally blow up the league. Be more exciting brand of football that's for sure. Think fans would prefer that.

[duke313]

13 minutes ago, ChicagoVillan1983 said:

That would totally blow up the league. Be more exciting brand of football that's for sure. Think fans would prefer that.

Or teams would just defend even deeper, meaning less goals

It would kill our little offside glitch though. Like when Football manager releases an update to fix an exploit

[Pongo Waring]

Anyone got a video of them talking about Villas high line on Monday night football? I missed it. 

[Pongo Waring]

Got it