Ratings & Reactions: Legia Warszawa v Villa

[TRO]

47 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

I personally don't read much at all into pre-season, besides which players are looking fit and ready. I put more stock in last season, when we looked very defensively tight using a lot of the tactics that Emery is being criticised for now.

I'm not using injuries as a cop-out, but the combination of injuries and rotation meant our defence and midfield just didn't look as sharp or as balanced as it should have.

We have an excess of "ballplaying" CBs who look fine at home when we can play on the front foot, but keep getting their pants pulled down in away games. That's where we're missing Mings, as you say.

I have no issue at all with ballplaying CBs and ballplaying midfielders, but they usually need to be paired up with a more robust player, especially in games where you're likely to have to battle for the result.

Having said all that, if you drop Diaby, Watkins, Luiz, and Cash, that is something between a first team and a second string lineup. So maybe we just need to get used to the fact that rotating for a packed fixture list is a bigger ask for Emery than just focusing on the Premier League as he could last season.

I glean something from every game we play....but my focus is not criticising Emery, he's done too well, to be doing that....but he won't be happy with that spectacle last night.

Last night should be an opportunity to see, where its going wrong, and boy, there was enough evidence on show for that......This has happened a few times this season, and few times last season....and the goal CP mustered was of similar ilk.

We have the option to ignore it, and simply treat is as a bad night or we make a concerted effort to shake off this current " easy to play against " tag we had under previous managers.

I have no problem with ball playing centre backs, but as you say in a balanced defensive set up.......I have no problem, with ball playing Midfielders, in a balanced midfield.....some forwards too have a responsibilty to hold the ball up ( defensive action), provided their prime function is being carried out, threatening the goal.

We can talking until the cows come home of systems and personnel types and lineups......but at the end of the day is about defending, well and attacking well, when the time arises.

2 goals was enough to go away to Warsaw with....its the 3 against needs some attention.

Edited September 22, 2023 by TRO

[TomC]

3 hours ago, Stevo71 said:

Hopefully that's out European Stevenage out the way. I was delighted when we "only" qualified for the Conference - figured we'd have a decent shot at this comp, be out of our depth in the Europa and absolutely ruined in the CL (I mean, imagine). Seems we're actually further behind in our rehab than I'd hoped. On the plus side, many lessons learned there.

If we had been playing Real Madrid or Bayern, we would not have started that XI, and the players would not have underestimated their opponents.

At least, unlike Stevenage, we aren't out of the competition.

 

[duke313]

49 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

I watch a fair bit of legia. If you think the team we put out there wasn't strong enough, you are mistaken.

We just didn't want it and shit our pants. It's stevenage mk2, which is a bit worrying from a cup mastermind of Emery. 

But our quality was far greater than what they have. By miles. Legia would struggle in the championship.

I am 100% confident we will destroy them at VP. 

On paper, the teams put out versus Stevenage and Legia are where good enough to get results in those games.  Why they didn't, I have no idea.    

[romavillan]

9 minutes ago, TRO said:

This has happened a few times this season, and few times last season....and the goal CP mustered was of similar ilk.

We have the option to ignore it, and simply treat is as a bad night or we make a concerted effort to shake off this current " easy to play against " tag we had under previous managers.

Every time it's happened, or happpened a few times in a row like the bad run in the league and cup last season, Emery has analysed it and come up with solutions. I'd expect him to do the same here.

He has always said a defeat is an opportunity to learn and improve.

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, romavillan said:

Every time it's happened, or happpened a few times in a row like the bad run in the league and cup last season, Emery has analysed it and come up with solutions. I'd expect him to do the same here.

He has always said a defeat is an opportunity to learn and improve.

I'd expect him to, too.

But it seems to me, the similar traits have returned to rear their ugly head, from previous showings.

Maybe, He thought he had cured this, only to have to go back and revisit it.

I hope you are right....and normal service is soon to be resumed.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Mic09 said:

I watch a fair bit of legia. If you think the team we put out there wasn't strong enough, you are mistaken.

We just didn't want it and shit our pants. It's stevenage mk2, which is a bit worrying from a cup mastermind of Emery. 

But our quality was far greater than what they have. By miles. Legia would struggle in the championship.

I am 100% confident we will destroy them at VP. 

I have a tendency to agree with your view.

I think the operative word here is "strong" what do we mean in literal terms?

Strong physically, strong Mentally, strong in technique, or all 3

Any team willing to be in our faces and enage in physical battles, soon has us, looking for space and backing off.....we then turn to plan ? which suggests we just score more than them, some times it works, sometimes it doesn't.

For where we want to go, its unlikey you can just score your way to the top.....even Man City have physically engaging players, for all their technique.

[fightoffyour]

Reports that a fan died after the match in an accident, some articles saying Villa fan like the one quoted below, actually more leaning towards Legia. Tragic either way obviously.

https://polski-sport.pl/pechowy-wypadek-po-meczu-legia-aston-villa-nie-zyje-kibic/
 

Quote

A very unpleasant incident occurred after Thursday's Legia Warsaw match with Aston Villa in the European Conference League. One of the fans of the English team at the height of the Łazienkowski bridge fell from a height of several meters. Despite the resuscitation undertaken, unfortunately it could not be saved

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by fightoffyour

[TRO]

24 minutes ago, duke313 said:

On paper, the teams put out versus Stevenage and Legia are where good enough to get results in those games.  Why they didn't, I have no idea.    

Thats what we are all debating.

[allani]

25 minutes ago, TRO said:

Firstly you say you disagree.....but go on to say just about everything, I have been saying....so I really don't know where we disagree, maybe its just the word "arrogant", and I choose a slightly different slant, whilst still agreeing with you overall...but hey ho.

I agree with the sentiment, that you present....but,  I will say it my way, we are not sufficiently engaged in the art of stopping opponents, we are far too busy in trying to attack and score goals, waiting in space for the pass, before the initiative is secured.....we try to avoid in engaging in the ugly side of the game, by standing off and prefer the glory side, unfortunately football doesn't give you those options, you have to work for them.

Too many piano players, not enough piano carriers, this have been an issue for some time....and its not a one off.

I am not professing to know the answers, I just have my suspicions, like many fans.....but, if the club don't recognise the problems, emanating from last nights game, the putting it right, might take a bit longer, than we think.

I would be mortified if Unai, couldn't see the defensive Horror show, we saw.

My worry and I am not expecting folk to agree with me, is we simply don't have enough types to make the options, to fix it......you can only fix things if you have the components to do so.....I feel too many offensive tendency players are playing in defensive roles at present, and all the changes won't fix it, if that remains.

I accept, that my stance on the defensive side or our game, in many instances falls on deaf ears.

 

I think I probably saw last night as more of a one-off performance caused by players being caught off-guard by thinking that they had an easy 90 minutes ahead.  Where I agree is that with all the changes we made we lost some of the balance that we have in our starting XI. 

However, in our home matches so far in the PL I think our balance has been good (aided by the fact that we've probably played three teams who will finish in the bottom half) - we should never have been 1-0 down to Palace based on the first half performance.  Yes - the balance has probably shifted towards us winning 3-1 than 1-0 but I don't mind that.  Our away matches have been a different kettle of fish - but again that should be tempered slightly by the fact that we've played two teams who should be in the battle for CL places. 

I think it is clear that at the moment our back 4 are not as good at the high line as we were last season - lots of people suggested it was a dangerous tactic last season but actually we played it very well, and very few teams exploited it, if someone did break our line then we often managed to get back and recover the situation and we had one of the best defensive records in the league.  The tactic addressed many of the issues that we had previously about becoming encamped on the edge of our area and not being able to relieve pressure often enough.  The questions is whether it is just about time and building the confidence / relationship that means that the back 4 are operating as 1 (bearing in mind we've barely played the same back 4 in back to back matches yet).  Or whether there is an inherent issue with the current personnel that teams will be able to exploit.  My impression is that we would probably have played Moreno, Mings, Pau and Konsa as our back four - with the latter three drifting into more of a 3 at the back when we have possession and Moreno is attacking.  In which case Mings would have been the player plugging that gap between the LCB and LB.

I think three things really stand out to me so far. 

(1) Mings was our defensive leader and with him (and Carlos) both out we are more unbalanced on the defensive / physical side.  I do think that Pau brings a huge amount to the way that we want to play but he needs Mings / Carlos alongside him as Konsa isn't that aggressive, loud CB either.  I think we'll do well enough defensively for it not to be a huge issue against most teams - yeah we might not keep as many clean sheets as last season but we will score more.  The problem will be more against better teams who either counter our attacking play more effectively or can repeatedly put our defence under pressure.  I'd be nervous about changing the high line too quickly as it is a critical part of how we attack - and actually I'm not sure that retreating to the edge of our area makes us any stronger (just gives teams more opportunity to put balls into our box).  The understanding between Pau and Konsa will improve and I think they'll be able to paper over the cracks more often than not until either Carlos is back or we can try and find a more "aggressive" CB to allow us to more closely match our intended back 4.

(2) Our most important midfielder is (by a distance) Dougie.  He makes us tick offensively and defensively from the middle of the park.  He allows the rest of our midfield to focus more on their game and what they are good at.  Without him, other players have to start doing other things that they aren't maybe so confident doing.  Tielemans, McGinn, Kamara, Ramsey are better when Dougie is playing and playing well.  I think the issue is that if Kamara is injured / off form then who can we play there and still allow Doug to operate in his best role?

(3) After a long time of worrying about what we do if Ollie isn't scoring - our attack is actually packed with options now.  Diaby and Zaniolo give us a different threat, we can use Bailey from the bench and suddenly I think we can all see why we spent big on Duran (and also why we were maybe more willing to let Archer go).  His pricetag is beginning to look more and more like a bargain each week.  Already proving that we can use him to give Ollie some rest but also that he gives us a different type of CF option.  Hopefully, Ollie finds his scoring boots soon because I think he can absolutely smash it with more support and more chances coming his way - I still think he'll break his Villa record this season.  The fact that he is getting chances suggests to me that sooner or later they are going to start going in.

[duke313]

7 minutes ago, TRO said:

Thats what we are all debating.

Well, what have we come up with?

The general consensus here is that we shouldn't have made any changes at all to the starting XI.  The 5 changes made, on paper, were the correct decision IMO.

[PaulC]

Perhaps the players thought it was going to be Easy like Hibernian and this will be a wake up call that all teams deserve the same respect as is we were playing a Premier League side.

[ender4]

3 hours ago, slovenian said:

 

Lets buy David and Gonz to get the full set!

[ender4]

1 hour ago, duke313 said:

 

The general consensus here is that we shouldn't have made any changes at all to the starting XI.  The 5 changes made, on paper, were the correct decision IMO.

I agree with the changes.  Before the match i wanted at least 5 changes and i stand by that.  That 11 should have been good enough to beat Warsaw, but mentally they just weren't there.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, romavillan said:

Every time it's happened, or happpened a few times in a row like the bad run in the league and cup last season, Emery has analysed it and come up with solutions. I'd expect him to do the same here.

He has always said a defeat is an opportunity to learn and improve.

...........and a win is also an opportunity to build from and Strengthen.

The differnce is, one has to change....the other just Morphs in to a better version.

[duke313]

Just now, ender4 said:

I agree with the changes.  Before the match i wanted at least 5 changes and i stand by that.  That 11 should have been good enough to beat Warsaw, but mentally they just weren't there.

Yep, was purely mental.  Every single player who started last night would walk onto the Legia team, including Chambers. 

[Zero7]

1 hour ago, fightoffyour said:

Reports that a fan died after the match in an accident, some articles saying Villa fan like the one quoted below, actually more leaning towards Legia. Tragic either way obviously.

https://polski-sport.pl/pechowy-wypadek-po-meczu-legia-aston-villa-nie-zyje-kibic/
 

 

THat is so sad to hear 

[Zatman]

4 hours ago, Mic09 said:

I watch a fair bit of legia. If you think the team we put out there wasn't strong enough, you are mistaken.

We just didn't want it and shit our pants. It's stevenage mk2, which is a bit worrying from a cup mastermind of Emery. 

But our quality was far greater than what they have. By miles. Legia would struggle in the championship.

I am 100% confident we will destroy them at VP. 

I would say a comparison to Legia would probably be Celtic level and some wpuld expect us to coast past them. Think the manager said the team cost 800k

It was a cocky performance and got what we deserved

[The Fun Factory]

4 hours ago, fightoffyour said:

Reports that a fan died after the match in an accident, some articles saying Villa fan like the one quoted below, actually more leaning towards Legia. Tragic either way obviously.

https://polski-sport.pl/pechowy-wypadek-po-meczu-legia-aston-villa-nie-zyje-kibic/
 

 

Is there a second source on this?

[Sulberto21]

Pages and pages of information about the defeat and how we are rubbish and powderpuff again. 

[AvonVillain]

Oh well, 12 more games before we win the thing.