Ratings & Reactions: Villa v West Ham

[TRO]

9 minutes ago, allani said:

I was watching it Italy and the commentators are usually pretty good (and quite fair / non-partisan in their comments).  From the replays showed here and what the commentators said - Hause was without doubt dangerous and made contact with his elbow - so it was 100% a red card.  They replayed that several times and from no angle should it have been a yellow.  I personally don't think that Konsa fouled Bowen (I thought his contact in the Everton match was much more dodgy) - but if you give a foul then it has to be a red card.  So the officials actually let us off the hook.  As far as I know the rules would allow for advantage to be played after serious foul play and so both our players should have been red cards.  From the angle we had the West Ham foul initially looked like a yellow (and a strong talking to) rather than a straight red.  None of the angles shown here suggested that was wrong.  Much as I disliked the push, I don't think that it was violent.  I think a yellow was fair but again with a "listen son you can't do that and so you are dangerously close to the line" comment.

The overall opinion from Italian TV was that the only mistake the ref made was in not sending off Hause (i.e. it should have been 9 v 11).  Their main focus was on it being a pretty good performance from West Ham who look good for chasing Europe again this season and a very worrying performance from us particularly on the back of the Wolves and Arsenal matches.  Like I say I think that their pundits get it right a lot more often than they get it wrong and certainly don't have the bias that exists on the UK coverage.

I think, if we focus on the decisions, more than , the elements of poor play, which is far more serious moving forward.......we are in for a worrying time.

our poor play, is being side tracked by decisions, where in most cases our poor play, is instrumental in those decisions.....we are untidy, late to the ball, clumsy,...I could go on.

Edited October 31, 2021 by TRO

[allani]

12 minutes ago, chappy said:

Rubbish. As I said in the match thread, it took me 4 trains and a replacement bus to get there today, should’ve known from that point on it wasn’t gonna be our day!

West Ham are a very efficient side. We just didn’t know how to go about breaking them down for most of the first half. Nice bit of quality for our goal though.

Couldn't really tell from the Holte what was going on with the two red cards but it would probably have been better for us if Hause had gone. We’ll miss Konsa more whilst suspended.

Voted the ref as very poor for something that happened after that. We were (against all the odds) right back in it after the red card. Then Nakamba was chopped down and I haven’t seen much mention of it on here so not sure if it was obvious on the tv… the ball had fallen to El Ghazi who was pretty much clean through on goal, but the ref decided to blow for the foul. I was annoyed but thought at least he’s gonna send one of their players off here… and only the yellow came out! Then to make it even worse two mins later the same thing happened going the other way but this time he waved through the advantage and they scored. 
 

Heard plenty of muttering about the manager in the ground and at the station after the game today. I don’t want him gone but all is not well clearly. Need to somehow beat Soton on Friday or it’ll be a long international break. 
 

Didn’t notice Buendia go straight down the tunnel btw, thought he sat down on the bench? Did they comment on this on the tv?

Voted Cash motm. Watkins only other potential contender. Nakamba blew hot and cold. The rest were pretty poor.

Interesting.  I didn't see the potential break-away.  That sounds very unfortunate to say the least.  I wonder whether he didn't play advantage because he saw things potentially (and then actually) kicking off?  I have to say that after West Ham scored their third I was a bit worried that VAR might review Targett's challenge in the centre circle - it looked like he played the man rather than the ball and I think that he'd already been booked?

[TRO]

1 minute ago, villalad21 said:

We don't have the personnel to graft. 

I am not so sure....it comes from demand.

It has to be demanded.

[TRO]

2 hours ago, villalad21 said:

Moyes pretty much saying they were only in 2nd gear.

Declan Rice was openly saying he made a few errors.....but we don't bloody exploit these things.

They were admitting they didn't play that well.....but still able to beat us with ease.

[TRO]

2 hours ago, Peter Griffin said:

Yeah, that last thing I expected from a Villa & Dean Smith team is the feeling there is something wrong in the dressing room. I would have had the culture and team bonding as probably Dean's greatest asset. I am really surprised by the talk of disharmony and the vibes we are getting from the players. I genuinely feel sorry for Dean with the way things are going

losing games in the manner, we are losing them.....brings this on.

seen it all before.

[allani]

Just now, TRO said:

I think, if we focus on the decisions, more that , the elements of poor play, which is far more serious moving forward.......we are in for a worrying time.

our poor play, is being side tracked by decisions, where in most cases our poor play, is instrumental in those decisions.....we are untidy, late to the ball, clumsy,...I could go on.

I agree.  The last thing we should be doing at the moment is claiming that we only lost today due to a couple of refereeing decisions (my personal feeling is that 9 v 11 was more justifiable than the 10 v 9 that some seem to be claiming).  Even before the goal there was plenty to concern us.  Our tactics seem to now be - pass sideways, pass sideways, pass backwards, pass sideways, hoof the ball upfield.  West Ham had far more time on the ball, created more space, made better runs between our midfielders / defenders, etc.  We made one brilliant move to get back into it and then reverted back to before.  We've been unfortunate with injuries and we've had a tough run of matches against teams that should be finishing in the top half - but we've looked poor for large spells of the last 5 matches and seem to be getting too many of the basics wrong.

[TRO]

2 hours ago, Don_Simon said:

I haven't said you did say that. That would be ludicrous, (unless your Wes or Nasseff in disguise). You wouldn't put forward a suggestion for the next manager because it isn't your job - yet it also isn't your job to sack the manager but you are more than willing to make that decision. 

suggestion.

[MrBlack]

1 hour ago, allani said:

Seriously.  I want some of whatever you are drinking.  We deserved absolutely nothing out of today's match.  West Ham were quicker to every ball, they put us under more pressure when we had the ball, they worked harder off the ball, they were quicker and more in control when they had the ball.  We could have played that match 100 times and based on the performance of the players we would have lost at least 85 times of those 100 matches.  Trying to blame the officials is ridiculous.  We need to blame the players and the coaching staff.  Our performance was not good enough.  Let's save this "rage" against the officials for those times when we deserve to get something out of a match and are denied by a bad decision - like the West Ham game last season when Ollie's goal was ruled out for offside but the foul on him that put him offside wasn't flagged as a penalty.  The players deserved nothing today.  Smith deserved nothing today.  Sweeping that aside won't help us try and figure out how to get ourselves out of this run of (quite frankly) shocking performances.

I agree we were largely shit. But we went down to 10 and came back into the game with some belief. Had the ref then sent off one or both of their players that deserved a red, we're then given a further boost and a level playing field.  We would have been massive favourites to score the next goal. Admittedly, we were rubbish for the rest of the game and deserved to be losing, but that rubbish decision to be lenient, after being so harsh on Komsa was a pivotal moment of terrible refereeing.

For what it's worth, VAR screwed up by not deeming Hause's assault worthy of a red card, so had that gone against us maybe we wouldn't have seen the bounce back the injustice of Konsa's red saw. But how you think we weren't in top when they should have had 2 men sent off is amazing to me...give me whatever you're on 

[TRO]

2 hours ago, Don_Simon said:

Give me strength. 

Your opinion is that the board should make the decision to sack Dean Smith. Yet when someone asked who should replace Dean Smith, you said it isn't your job to do that. 

The point I made is that you are happy to think for the board and sack Dean Smith, but not think for the board and suggest a replacement. 

You're angry, and not thinking straight. Let's leave it now. 

I think he is saying, he is capable of seeing , we can't go on like this.....but as to who can go on and turn it around, is quite a different debate....they are essentially mutually exclusive.

[TRO]

17 minutes ago, allani said:

I agree.  The last thing we should be doing at the moment is claiming that we only lost today due to a couple of refereeing decisions (my personal feeling is that 9 v 11 was more justifiable than the 10 v 9 that some seem to be claiming).  Even before the goal there was plenty to concern us.  Our tactics seem to now be - pass sideways, pass sideways, pass backwards, pass sideways, hoof the ball upfield.  West Ham had far more time on the ball, created more space, made better runs between our midfielders / defenders, etc.  We made one brilliant move to get back into it and then reverted back to before.  We've been unfortunate with injuries and we've had a tough run of matches against teams that should be finishing in the top half - but we've looked poor for large spells of the last 5 matches and seem to be getting too many of the basics wrong.

I can honestly tell you, where I sit we are normally very silent, in terms of debate.....sure we sing a bit.

Our play dominated the conversation, with around 10 fans during the game in active observation.

it was amazingly cordial, considering the standard of play....and we all saw the game in much the same way.

Most agreed that Dean is on thin ice, despite none of us wanting to lose our manager......but we cannot continue like this, and the business question is, when do we cease to run with this?

The next game, is slowly becoming a rope slipping through your hands in a quick sand.....There is no sign of a turn around...which is the most worrying.

[OutByEaster?]

For what it's worth, I don't think you need to have an opinion on the next manager to have an opinion on this one. It's perfectly acceptable to be unhappy with this manager (I'm not) and not have an alternative lined up - I could tell you that a piano is out of tune, with no idea how it should be tuned.

 

[Wainy316]

The worst of the referee’s decisions was not playing the advantage when El Ghazi was clean though following the foul on Nakamba.  He probably could have helped the situation though by not rolling around like salmon out fo water. 

[pacbuddies]

2 hours ago, Don_Simon said:

Give me strength. 

Your opinion is that the board should make the decision to sack Dean Smith. Yet when someone asked who should replace Dean Smith, you said it isn't your job to do that. 

The point I made is that you are happy to think for the board and sack Dean Smith, but not think for the board and suggest a replacement. 

You're angry, and not thinking straight. Let's leave it now. 

You really are a confused individual. I think TRO and OutByEaster have put it in simple terms that maybe even you can understand 

Edited October 31, 2021 by pacbuddies

[Harry]

If you selected the best players on paper to make up a combined Villa / WHU starting eleven I could easily see half or more being Villa. The point is we have the players but they don't look like a team. WHU today were a solid well organised unit who played like a team. Moyes has got them doing all the basics right and it builds from there. Villa on the other hand are a disjointed mess of individuals. I know a few on here are blaming the ref who made some very poor decisions but we have shipped 12 goals in four games. The ref did not help today but its missing the point. Our problems run much much deeper

Sadly responsibility sits with the manager. I have been a supporter of Smith but it seems he has lost the dressing room. Buendia's reaction to being substituted tells you everything about what a key player thinks of Smith and that's probably the view of the dressing room.

I fully expect us to lose to Southampton on Friday so that's five in a row so that will be game over for Smith. I would strongly suspect Purslow already has the feelers out for a new manager. Its better to change now and give the new manager as many games as possible to sort this mess out

[TRO]

19 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

For me it was a game in three sections:

1.) The first half (and in particular the first half hour of the first half) - we really struggled to get out from the back, there was some frustration that the ball wasn't going forward and when it did, it was balls down the side that we were struggling to win. That's us missing Douglas Luiz - missing someone coming out of midfield, picking the ball up deep and turning. We adjusted as the half went on but gave up two goals from weak shots that Martinez might have been expected to save - I'm not sure if either of them took deflections, if they did, my apologies to Emi. Going in at half time at 2-1, I thought we were still in it.

2.) Ten versus eleven - I haven't seen the Hause one back, on first viewing it didn't look a foul to me, but I was watching feet and from the sound of things he might have gone for a forearm. The Konsa one wasn't a red, either on first sight or on replay - the ref has bottled it because a bloke in a warehouse somewhere has insisted he take a look. A big decision and one that was wrong.

That said it didn't change the game in the way you'd expect - after the sending off we looked more effective, Mings slotted in and we didn't miss Buendia at all (which might say something about his performance, great run to set up the goal excepted) - we were the better side at ten versus eleven and looked the more likely scorers, Ollie hit the bar and if anything it looked like a matter of time before we equalised.

3.) Ten (or nine) versus twelve - the tackle on Nakamba by Bowen(?) was a shocker, late, at pace, endangering the opponent, all of those things; your quintessential 21st century red card - our players were infuriated by it, with several rushing over to remonstrate with him. It's a bad challenge, the sort that injures players, the type we don't want to see in the game - a red, simple and obvious. In the middle of the scrum around it, I think Fornals (back from the dead after the Hause incident) pushed McGinn over with what looked like a hand in the face, again you'd expect a red. When the ref came up with two yellows and VAR had presumably switched over to the dancing, it took the wind out of our sails. Even more so when with Nakamba still off the field receiving treatment West Ham scored a third. The game might have turned on our red card but didn't, if anything it galvanised us, but teams don't bounce back from two lumps of injustice in the same game and we were beaten as soon as the third went in. 

It was frustrating because we'd worked them out - they couldn't deal with the ball over the head of Johnson, their right back and we were exploiting that regularly - I'm confident we'd have equalised - for me, Chris Kavanagh was the difference between the two sides - there's no way that's a 4-1 game of football.

 

For West Ham, they're organised and physical, a good mid-table team that are hard to beat - very Moyes - but no one in their front four gets in our side - two strong, capable defensive midfielders, solid centre halves and decent full backs -they're alright but they aren't a fourth place team, they'll finish about eighth. Their fans were excellent though in fairness to them, they brought a lot of noise.

There will be a lot of people for whom the game will be about the manager, for me it's a difficult one to judge, we started poorly, but we don't know when we lost Luiz and how much we had to change the plan, and we got stronger throughout the game - he got the subs right even if they were enforced and tactically we found something that worked and exploited it. He needs to do the thing that's very hard for managers - he needs to find some luck, because whilst I don't think you can pin this one on him, and no matter how much the scoreline isn't a reflection of the performance, the back of the paper says 4-1 and every manager only has so many of those headlines in him.

So yeah, the biggest bit of this one is on the refereeing for me, the manager did okay, the team gave it their all, the fans stayed with them throughout, Declan Rice surprised us by being a knob and the keeper proved he's human - onto the next one and we need a win.

 

 

 

The mass exodus on 80 minutes suggested they was not with them after, and judging by the mutterings, of the masses, outside,  it was anything but an unfortunate evening......they was very Angry and Dean was not their favourite son. That is one of the biggest crowds I have seen leave early, it looked like the end of the match crowd.

The bolded bit, is the platform of their team, the very essence of why their forwards can attack with confidence and  impunity......I don't doubt, with such a sold base to work from, our talented forwards would play with much more confidence and assurance too.....contrary to what you imply, that is the foundation of their team.

Where they will finish, is pure conjecture, but a very solid durable team, who can score goals, can make a decent impact.

We have to be careful, that we are starting to blame poor decisions for every reversal, even though some claims are legitimate.....but "a bad workman blames his tools"....we are slowly drifting in to that territory.

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by TRO

[TRO]

3 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

For what it's worth, I don't think you need to have an opinion on the next manager to have an opinion on this one. It's perfectly acceptable to be unhappy with this manager (I'm not) and not have an alternative lined up - I could tell you that a piano is out of tune, with no idea how it should be tuned.

 

I think most folk are just unhappy, with the performances ( what they see) and the results are starting to get humiliating and frustrating.....who is at fault for those results?, is up for debate.

In many instances in our professional game rightly or wrongly the Manager takes the responsibility....He is the one, that can make the main changes to a team and prepares them for matches, so it follows that his name will feature prominently, when a dismal sequence of losses is recorded.

He now has to find a solution....that is what he is paid for.....How long he will be given to turn this around, I have no idea.

Am I happy, with what I am seeing right now?......NO.

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by TRO

[sheepyvillian]

We can bemoan this decision and not getting the rub of the green, but negativity breeds indecision and trepidation. When you lack belief it only leads one way.

 

[Philosopher]

So poor team performance. 

The first goal was poor on several counts. How does the fullback get so much space, how was Targett so  narrow, if Targett is that narrow it implies Bailey should've been outside of him. However you don't expect a left back to cut in onto his weaker foot and shoot 20 yards across goal to score. Also how does Rice have so much time and space to play that ball to Johnson.

Bringing on Ash ahead of Carney seemed like a lack of ambition, it was the safe option.

Good response to get back in the game and deserve it which we just about did.

How we could give such a goal away 4 minutes later, once again Rice having acres of space and time to shoot. Who was supposed to close him down? I thought when you play a no 10 he is supposed to mark the opposition 6! Rice is their best player, we should be putting a man on him.

The 'elbow' from Hause looks worse than it was. One he actually touched the ball first, two he always had eyes on the ball. Clumsy yes, a yellow yes, a red would've been harsh for me.

The red card was very harsh. As I saw it Bowen cut across Konsa's path, it was basically impossible for him to avoid contact. If you give a foul for that, okay, but a red card is just plain wrong. Whether it's because that's what the rules say or not that's just an excuse, that was NEVER a red if the ref had the option to give a yellow.

With 10 men and a goal down against a team playing better football and very effective on the counter, there was only ever one result.

We played poorly Mcginn and Targett gave so much ball away it was criminal! I never want to see Mcginn as one of two 6's again! Targett has to be dropped, he gave a lot of ball away against Arsenal too. 

Our playing out from the back is awful. This is one reason why I'd like Young starting LB as he can pass, so he would help us. However this is fundamentally a coaching issue, and a long standing one!

Playing two 6's and a 10 was the wrong call. We should have started with a 6 and two 8's as our ten ended up coming too deep half the time, Mcginn often was caught in two minds and Rice got acres of space anyway.  Our attack still ended up getting isolated half the time.

In the match thread many commented on us playing better with 10. However that was just West Ham inviting us on, so they could kill us on the counter, the extra space being a man down made it easy for them.

Watkins going to the left before coming inside meant he was actually cramping Bailey. Bailey needs space to run, he's not Jack, those congested spaces aren't good for him. On the flip side, Buendia needed Ollie on that right hand side as he plays deeper and likes having someone in front of him to find. We should be looking to overload Buendia's side then switch it to Bailey's side to make the most of their strengths.

All in all poor from back to front. Smith needs to get it together, as he isn't playing to his players strengths right now. 

[briny_ear]

1 hour ago, Wainy316 said:

The worst of the referee’s decisions was not playing the advantage when El Ghazi was clean though following the foul on Nakamba.  He probably could have helped the situation though by not rolling around like salmon out fo water. 

That was quite extraordinary. He must have rolled about 6 or 7 metres, and doing quite athletic jumps in between each roll.

And I’m thinking, “If you are SO badly injured, how come you are suddenly going in for Olympic standard gymnastics???” 

Edited October 31, 2021 by briny_ear

[TRO]

2 hours ago, Harry said:

If you selected the best players on paper to make up a combined Villa / WHU starting eleven I could easily see half or more being Villa. The point is we have the players but they don't look like a team. WHU today were a solid well organised unit who played like a team. Moyes has got them doing all the basics right and it builds from there. Villa on the other hand are a disjointed mess of individuals. I know a few on here are blaming the ref who made some very poor decisions but we have shipped 12 goals in four games. The ref did not help today but its missing the point. Our problems run much much deeper

Sadly responsibility sits with the manager. I have been a supporter of Smith but it seems he has lost the dressing room. Buendia's reaction to being substituted tells you everything about what a key player thinks of Smith and that's probably the view of the dressing room.

I fully expect us to lose to Southampton on Friday so that's five in a row so that will be game over for Smith. I would strongly suspect Purslow already has the feelers out for a new manager. Its better to change now and give the new manager as many games as possible to sort this mess out

Its been said many times on here......West Ham have Soucek and Rice....midfielders quite different to what we have....and instrumental in their success, both in defence and attack....they are the glue for West Ham.

players we simply do not have in our squad, so DS can't change anything of significance, we change our midfielders and much the same comes on.....sure Antonio & Bowen are formidable forwards, but we had c£100 mill of forward line in our team.

you are right Harry, Barking on about Referee's and their decisions ,simply detracts from the main issues.

Its clear to me the system is a redherring and its beginning to show the personnel changes we make, shows little difference.

We have spent c£95 mill on attacking players, but can't close down, can't keep the ball, and get easily beaten to it.....We focus too much on Vanity players and not enough on substance players.....we can't defend a lead or an equaliser.....we are wide open, most of the time.

We have lost 4 games on the trot, 3 convincingly and 1 a collapse......why do we think it would be anything other than 5.

We have lost 6 of our last 10 games, what exactly are we expecting, divine intervention.