Ratings & Reactions: Villa v West Ham

[TRO]

2 hours ago, sheepyvillian said:

We can bemoan this decision and not getting the rub of the green, but negativity breeds indecision and trepidation. When you lack belief it only leads one way.

 

When you lack belief, it is derived from a series of elements.....There is a tangible reason behind why a team lacks belief or why a team has it.

Dean has to ascertain, why his players lack belief or confidence, after all he has enough coaches to help him....That is his job to find a solution to this drop off in form.

I think watching that game tonight would give any honest, discerning fan reasons why we are playing as poorly as we are....but of course, its all opinions.

 

[TRO]

2 hours ago, Philosopher said:

So poor team performance. 

The first goal was poor on several counts. How does the fullback get so much space, how was Targett so  narrow, if Targett is that narrow it implies Bailey should've been outside of him. However you don't expect a left back to cut in onto his weaker foot and shoot 20 yards across goal to score. Also how does Rice have so much time and space to play that ball to Johnson.

Bringing on Ash ahead of Carney seemed like a lack of ambition, it was the safe option.

Good response to get back in the game and deserve it which we just about did.

How we could give such a goal away 4 minutes later, once again Rice having acres of space and time to shoot. Who was supposed to close him down? I thought when you play a no 10 he is supposed to mark the opposition 6! Rice is their best player, we should be putting a man on him.

The 'elbow' from Hause looks worse than it was. One he actually touched the ball first, two he always had eyes on the ball. Clumsy yes, a yellow yes, a red would've been harsh for me.

The red card was very harsh. As I saw it Bowen cut across Konsa's path, it was basically impossible for him to avoid contact. If you give a foul for that, okay, but a red card is just plain wrong. Whether it's because that's what the rules say or not that's just an excuse, that was NEVER a red if the ref had the option to give a yellow.

With 10 men and a goal down against a team playing better football and very effective on the counter, there was only ever one result.

We played poorly Mcginn and Targett gave so much ball away it was criminal! I never want to see Mcginn as one of two 6's again! Targett has to be dropped, he gave a lot of ball away against Arsenal too. 

Our playing out from the back is awful. This is one reason why I'd like Young starting LB as he can pass, so he would help us. However this is fundamentally a coaching issue, and a long standing one!

Playing two 6's and a 10 was the wrong call. We should have started with a 6 and two 8's as our ten ended up coming too deep half the time, Mcginn often was caught in two minds and Rice got acres of space anyway.  Our attack still ended up getting isolated half the time.

In the match thread many commented on us playing better with 10. However that was just West Ham inviting us on, so they could kill us on the counter, the extra space being a man down made it easy for them.

Watkins going to the left before coming inside meant he was actually cramping Bailey. Bailey needs space to run, he's not Jack, those congested spaces aren't good for him. On the flip side, Buendia needed Ollie on that right hand side as he plays deeper and likes having someone in front of him to find. We should be looking to overload Buendia's side then switch it to Bailey's side to make the most of their strengths.

All in all poor from back to front. Smith needs to get it together, as he isn't playing to his players strengths right now. 

If I am being honest, no matter, who we pick, where they play or what formation we choose......I see the same fundamental flaws lately....too slow to the ball, insufficient ball control, spasmodic closing down, and poor tracking of runners, an much more.

That for me says more about the individual player and his attitude, than systems or positions.....They look like a rag tag shambles at times, particularly, without the ball....There seems a disconnect between Dean and the team, the same way as a connect between Moyes and his team.

He has to find a solution.

[TRO]

5 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

I genuinely think that without the decisions in the Nakamba challenge, we'd have got a point from that game - we were the better side between Konsa's red card and that incident - West Ham looked lethargic and lacking in ideas - Benrahma didn't show up, Antonio presented no danger, Fornals was peripheral and Bowen was so-so at best - none of those four would have made our starting line up - they defend well and they're organised, but there wasn't much between the two sides on the performances.

 

wow....I saw a huge difference.

• Antonio was instrumental in 2 of their goals...........their third goal was where he won an aerial duel with Target and his header went Straight to Bowen for a power run, who crossed for Fornals to score.
• Bowen showed an appetite to attack and close down....so defended well and attacked well.
• Fornals scored so he justified his selection.

Their defending well and being organised is the very backdrop they create for their attacking exploits. They scored 4 tonight, so I would safely say, they got their attacking side, spot on, aided by our ability to stand off and not track runners or close down danger.

 

 

[TRO]

6 hours ago, TomC said:

I studied all 4 goals conceded just now, and as has been the case often this year, the problems come back to simple errors...

1st goal: Bailey was in the right place. His attempt at the ball was lame. Can't blame that on the coaching.

2nd goal: A nice strike into a small gap. However, 4 players bunched up near 2 attackers and didn't maintain any spacing. Arguably, that helped open up the small gap. Still, I'm not ready to blame this one on anyone.

3rd goal: The only man at the centre line when West Ham broke was Targett. He was in a good position to contest the initial ball. Unfortunately, Antonio beat him to the header. More unfortunately, watch just before the header...McGinn was with Bowen at the start of his run, but pulled up, apparently totally unaware that Targett was isolated, and let Bowen get away from him to run onto the header. Plenty of fault to McGinn, but also, where were the centre backs? Nakamba and Young did everything they could to get back; I can't fault them. But the centre backs should have been there long before them. You can't both go forward and leave one fullback to cope with counterattacks.

4th goal: Defensive confusion. Targett was with Bowen, but left him to go chase the ball carrier (Lanzini)...and nobody switches with him. We had three men chasing Lanzini (unsuccessfully) and Bowen was wide open. No awareness of what each other were doing. Targett probably made the right move...Lanzini was on our left, and that's Targett's zone. So why are the others still chasing him? Knowing when to switch marks is part of zonal marking.

Really, the last two goals had nothing to do with being down to 10 men and everything to do with poor situational awareness.

 

but so reminiscent of the other defeats....its happening all the time lately.

[TomC]

7 minutes ago, TRO said:

but so reminiscent of the other defeats....its happening all the time lately.

Agreed...defence is our problem. As I pointed out in the Dean Smith thread, despite all the complaining about our attacking players, we've scored more than every team in the bottom half of the table and 3 teams in the top half. But we've conceded the 3rd most in the league. I've picked apart our conceded goals after almost every match and most of them are stupid mental errors. This is something we should be able to correct, especially now that we've given up on the 3-5-2.

 

[TRO]

7 minutes ago, TomC said:

Agreed...defence is our problem. As I pointed out in the Dean Smith thread, despite all the complaining about our attacking players, we've scored more than every team in the bottom half of the table and 3 teams in the top half. But we've conceded the 3rd most in the league. I've picked apart our conceded goals after almost every match and most of them are stupid mental errors. This is something we should be able to correct, especially now that we've given up on the 3-5-2.

 

You are so right....we have failed to score once all season.

But, it not just the back 4....its the defensive side of our whole game, its poor.....we are questionable, without the ball, very ordinary and not very well organised, to boot.

[Ponky]

Would have had no argument if Hause was sent off but sending off Konsa was ridiculous. What new information did the ref gain from VAR for the Konsa incident? Zero. No clear and obvious error. 

West Han deserved the win but we effectively handed it to them on a platter. Awful closing down for their first two, both of which Martinez of last season would have stopped. 

Back to the drawing board for Smiffy. Clock's ticking. 

[Villarocker]

4 hours ago, TRO said:

They said  that about our team in 1980/81/82....Ipswich, Liverpool and Arsenal was the darlings...they all laughed at the 110% workrate mantra Ron Peddled.

don't under estimate the attributes of West Ham, some of their qualities are not eye candy...but very effective and perfect for this arduous league...it will take them far.

TRO, you keep going back to the old adage of workrate and you're absolutely spot on mate. Look at the difference in Arsenal in the last two games. They came out of the blocks against Villa and never gave us a second on the ball. It's what we did at Chelsea in the first half and we almost got our rewards. 

Yesterday, Villa just didn't work hard enough. To be honest, they don't look fit enough, for whatever reason. Last season, game after game, Targett overlapped Grealish and he still got back and defended stoutly. Look at him for the second goal yesterday. He was on the wing, halfway into the West Ham half. Nakamba played Young into trouble and they broke on us. Targett looked like he was running through tar wearing ballet shoes. It was embarrassing to see - he looks so unfit. McGinn looks it too and so do others. Watkins isn't working opposing defences like he did all last season. Something isn't right. Is this where we're missing Terry and O'Kelly? Has something changed in the way they're training? 

 

[Robtaylor200]

9 hours ago, TRO said:

I too was hearing many fans in the mass exodus on 80 minutes, losing patience with DS.

Personally, I am fed up of listening to refereeing decsions as mitigation for our shoddy play....we are the architects of our own demise.

I hope we don't slip towards the exit door still bemoaning decisions going against us......we need to man up and dig some results out.

THIS for me. Mitigating circumstances are beginning to wear thin for me, (Mitigating circumstances are facts that do not excuse the  misconduct blah blah, but may show some  valid reasons for the actions taken) I think we are reading and listening to more mitigating circumstances after every match than what we actually did well for ourselves. The team and the staff seem to feel that everything is going against them at the moment. 

Well it wont change unless we make it change, I believe we need to get some discipline back into the squad No more Mr. Nice guy and protector 

Dean out and JT back as caretaker manager until a better replacement can be found 

[skell]

48 minutes ago, Robtaylor200 said:

THIS for me. Mitigating circumstances are beginning to wear thin for me, (Mitigating circumstances are facts that do not excuse the  misconduct blah blah, but may show some  valid reasons for the actions taken) I think we are reading and listening to more mitigating circumstances after every match than what we actually did well for ourselves. The team and the staff seem to feel that everything is going against them at the moment. 

Well it wont change unless we make it change, I believe we need to get some discipline back into the squad No more Mr. Nice guy and protector 

Dean out and JT back as caretaker manager until a better replacement can be found 

True but he hasnt had chance to play anything near his first time. Pretty strong mitigating circumstances. Let him play Bailey buendia traore Watkins and things will improve

[tinker]

1 hour ago, Robtaylor200 said:

THIS for me. Mitigating circumstances are beginning to wear thin for me,

Dean out and JT back as caretaker manager until a better replacement can be found 

I agree with most of what you're saying but JT would definitely not be the answer. He hasn't got the experience and would basically fall apart after a couple more losses. 

Smith can turn this around but he needs to start again and go back to basics. Let's get more in the midfield and try and stop teams playing to try and stop the losses. We can build the creative part of the game from a solid base and we have the players to come off the bench to do that late in games, at least games  that we have managed to stay in. 

[John]

 Poor selections/overall team performance and a well merited hiding, aided and abetted by both VAR & the referee!

[Robtaylor200]

37 minutes ago, tinker said:

I agree with most of what you're saying but JT would definitely not be the answer. He hasn't got the experience and would basically fall apart after a couple more losses. 

Smith can turn this around but he needs to start again and go back to basics. Let's get more in the midfield and try and stop teams playing to try and stop the losses. We can build the creative part of the game from a solid base and we have the players to come off the bench to do that late in games, at least games  that we have managed to stay in. 

Hope so I really do. But how many times have we all aired your points. Start again, back to basics and  more in midfield.

I agree it can be turned around. But I don't see a sign of it happening with Deano,  I would love to see Love Dean change it. I just don't think he can 

[Robtaylor200]

1 hour ago, skell said:

True but he hasn't had chance to play anything near his first time. Pretty strong mitigating circumstances. Let him play Bailey buendia traore Watkins and things will improve

Hope your right, but the players you have mentioned have hardly been spectacular so far apart from fleeting glimpses 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Robtaylor200

[wict01]

Having taken a bit of time to reflect on yesterday, I don't think anybody really did themselves justice. Everything was flat, from the players' performance, to the manager's performance, to the fans and the atmosphere. First half was like a morgue, and I get that partially because the performance gave us absolutely nothing to shout about. 

The biggest worry for me is that usually I agree with most things Dean says in his post-match but after the game yesterday I am not sure what he saw to inspire any confidence at all. Aside from the 30 seconds where we scored and a further 30 seconds where Watkins hits the bar, we were awful. Totally outfought, outthought and outmuscled all over the pitch by a team who know their roles and have the basics of football down to a fine art. 

Not that I want him to go, but I think if we fail to win on Friday then it will be curtains for Smith. I just cannot see who would replace him. Potter turned down Spurs so why would he come to us. Fonseca cannot organise a defence to save his life and Roma fans were glad to see the back of him.

This whole transfer window and start to the season feels a bit 13-14 Spurs post-Bale to me. 

[MentalM]

West Ham are really good, and they also had margins yesterday. Rice was outstanding in the midfield, their central CM is among the best in the league, props to them.

Hause should have had a red, Konsa should not. Also think Bowen should had one for the push on Mcginn, even thou Mcginn falls as a sack of potatoes. Dont think the rules allow those pushes... Yes Mcginn, you are git for doing that.

Doesnt take away the fact that the deserved team won the game. We are horrific at the moment. Cant string two passes together and we make horrible decisions in game. Add playing Young as a central midfielder, what in the hell was that? What was Smith thinking?

3 players gets "adequate enough to not be beheaded" and thats Cash, Nakamba and Watkins. Young, Targett and Bailly should not start next game after this performance, that was among the worst I have seen. Martinez should have saved the two first ones.

Something is just wrong at the monent, and I guess friday is a must win for Smith.

[skell]

25 minutes ago, Robtaylor200 said:

Hope your right, but the players you have mentioned have hardly been spectacular so far apart from fleeting glimpses 

That's the point isnt it. With all the injuries and interruptions they havent had chance to show what they can do. Specifically traore and bailey

[villabromsgrove]

I didn't expect us to win yesterday so I was not disappointed with the result.

However, I did expect to see full commitment out on the pitch and I really only got to see that from four players. Nakamba, Hause, Cash and Watkins.

Nakamba was energetically throwing himself into tackles and shouting and waving players into position, trying to get them to press more, but his technical limitations were once again exposed. If Nakamba is clearly man of the match then the team has real problems.

Hause is also technically limited and could easily have seen a red card, but again his tackling and commitment was an example to others who seem to prefer to play more cautiously.

Cash to his credit chased and harried all game.

Watkins put in his usual shift.

After three years in charge a manager should have a team style and ethos that reflects his own philosophy and characteristics. Sadly I think that the fairly laid back, comfortable bunch of individuals that pull on a Villa shirt on match days probably do.

Dean is a lovely guy and I don't think he's going to have a personality transplant any time soon. Our squad urgently needs someone with fresh ideas to come in and get rid of the complacency that appears to have taken root.

[tinker]

43 minutes ago, Robtaylor200 said:

Hope so I really do. But how many times have we all aired your points. Start again, back to basics and  more in midfield.

I agree it can be turned around. But I don't see a sign of it happening with Deano,  I would love to see Love Dean change it. I just don't think he can 

I see your point but I can't see who could come in and turn this around other than Smith. We have been here before with him and he managed to pull us out of it and I'm sure he can again.

Question still need to be answered though as the players we have brought in the summer do not seem to have improved our first team squad enough to warrant the outlay. Bailey has promise and fills the gap left by Jack, I can see the logic in that.  Ings is a problem to fit in the first 11 and keep our shape and Buendia doesn't seem to be that much better than Bert. 

Plenty of us have picked out the midfield as an area for  improvement but Dean seems to not agree. Yet Ramsey , a relatively unproven youth player,  is in the starting 11. ( He's not a bad player)

There's examples all over the pitch where we could have improved with relatively small outlay but we haven't, Young is another example of weakness in the squad that should have been addressed. 

[TRO]

3 hours ago, Villarocker said:

TRO, you keep going back to the old adage of workrate and you're absolutely spot on mate. Look at the difference in Arsenal in the last two games. They came out of the blocks against Villa and never gave us a second on the ball. It's what we did at Chelsea in the first half and we almost got our rewards. 

Yesterday, Villa just didn't work hard enough. To be honest, they don't look fit enough, for whatever reason. Last season, game after game, Targett overlapped Grealish and he still got back and defended stoutly. Look at him for the second goal yesterday. He was on the wing, halfway into the West Ham half. Nakamba played Young into trouble and they broke on us. Targett looked like he was running through tar wearing ballet shoes. It was embarrassing to see - he looks so unfit. McGinn looks it too and so do others. Watkins isn't working opposing defences like he did all last season. Something isn't right. Is this where we're missing Terry and O'Kelly? Has something changed in the way they're training? 

 

for sure.

They look like that have down toolsed.

Edited November 1, 2021 by TRO