Energy Bills

[AlwaysAVFC]

On 27/01/2023 at 11:19, AlwaysAVFC said:

We got our 6 month bill today and have about £280 credit which was nice to see, considering we owed them some after the last bill. I know there was the mild October but just shows how off their £340 direct debit adjustment was after the last bill.

We've been putting the £400 energy help aside too so that's not in the figures.

Cheeky bastards have today upped our direct debit from £210 to £217.50 despite being in credit. I've changed it back to £210.

[lapal_fan]

59 minutes ago, AlwaysAVFC said:

Cheeky bastards have today upped our direct debit from £210 to £217.50 despite being in credit. I've changed it back to £210.

They tried to change mine from 240 to 360, despite me being in £180 credit and getting through the worst of winter.. **** shit company.  Can't wait to leave them.

As for ASHP's, they're not a magic bullet for killing gas.  They typically get around 200-250% efficiency (gas would be 95% for a really good boiler), but there's much more to consider.

My company are part of a UK wide research and discovery task group called "Heat Pump Ready" (HPR).  Whereby they are requesting any exemplar data to put into a huge database which is essentially looking at all the heating calcs for all different types of building (and house types). 

The main problem with heat pumps is that they quickly lose efficiency when temperatures drop below 3 degrees and the less ambient heat in the atmosphere there is, the harder the compressor has to work to generate the heat, which can lead to breakdowns etc.  

There's an argument around at the moment that heat pumps should be sized for the climate in 95% of situations is, which is stable and above 3 degrees, the argument being that when it goes below this, it won't last long and to essentially "suck it up and put a jumper on".  Problem being that elderly people are then at increased risk.  

Then you have the argument of bivalent systems, which is a heat pump, which is then "boosted" by a gas boiler.  So at times when the pump is struggling to reach temperature, the gas boiler kicks in for the extra bit of heat.  This is the solution which makes most sense to me, but it's obviously less "net zero" than a full electric solution.

You can also bivalent with electric room heaters, but that's really artificial.

People in the Med don't have these problems, so they should be going heat pump really quickly.

Electric needs to come down in price, but we need to increase the capacity of the grid or generate more. Gas is cheap, which is why bills don't quite align for people who don't understand how these things work.

[Davkaus]

The DD calculations are a scam. They know exactly what they're doing, and that millions won't pay much attention and will obliviously give their energy provider an interest free loan.

[foreveryoung]

35 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

They tried to change mine from 240 to 360, despite me being in £180 credit and getting through the worst of winter.. **** shit company.  Can't wait to leave them.

As for ASHP's, they're not a magic bullet for killing gas.  They typically get around 200-250% efficiency (gas would be 95% for a really good boiler), but there's much more to consider.

My company are part of a UK wide research and discovery task group called "Heat Pump Ready" (HPR).  Whereby they are requesting any exemplar data to put into a huge database which is essentially looking at all the heating calcs for all different types of building (and house types). 

The main problem with heat pumps is that they quickly lose efficiency when temperatures drop below 3 degrees and the less ambient heat in the atmosphere there is, the harder the compressor has to work to generate the heat, which can lead to breakdowns etc.  

There's an argument around at the moment that heat pumps should be sized for the climate in 95% of situations is, which is stable and above 3 degrees, the argument being that when it goes below this, it won't last long and to essentially "suck it up and put a jumper on".  Problem being that elderly people are then at increased risk.  

Then you have the argument of bivalent systems, which is a heat pump, which is then "boosted" by a gas boiler.  So at times when the pump is struggling to reach temperature, the gas boiler kicks in for the extra bit of heat.  This is the solution which makes most sense to me, but it's obviously less "net zero" than a full electric solution.

You can also bivalent with electric room heaters, but that's really artificial.

People in the Med don't have these problems, so they should be going heat pump really quickly.

Electric needs to come down in price, but we need to increase the capacity of the grid or generate more. Gas is cheap, which is why bills don't quite align for people who don't understand how these things work.

I thought basically Heat pumps are not the answer because they still require electricity, an a fair bit in the cold winter months, which is generally sourced still from fossil. You will rarely ever make your money back, an they don't suit everyone, as they can be a nightmare to set up correctly.

We were actually put off by having one fitted when we had our building work,  by our heating guy. He said it might help the environment slightly, but certainly not your bank balance, for the above reasons.

[lapal_fan]

13 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

I thought basically Heat pumps are not the answer because they still require electricity, an a fair bit in the cold winter months, which is generally sourced still from fossil. You will rarely ever make your money back, an they don't suit everyone, as they can be a nightmare to set up correctly.

We were actually put off by having one fitted when we had our building work,  by our heating guy. He said it might help the environment slightly, but certainly not your bank balance, for the above reasons.

They are good, very good in certain conditions.  And electricity can be sourced from renewables like pv/wind etc, gas can't.. although you can use "green gas" in limited situations.

[sidcow]

1 hour ago, lapal_fan said:

They tried to change mine from 240 to 360, despite me being in £180 credit and getting through the worst of winter.. **** shit company.  Can't wait to leave them.

As for ASHP's, they're not a magic bullet for killing gas.  They typically get around 200-250% efficiency (gas would be 95% for a really good boiler), but there's much more to consider.

My company are part of a UK wide research and discovery task group called "Heat Pump Ready" (HPR).  Whereby they are requesting any exemplar data to put into a huge database which is essentially looking at all the heating calcs for all different types of building (and house types). 

The main problem with heat pumps is that they quickly lose efficiency when temperatures drop below 3 degrees and the less ambient heat in the atmosphere there is, the harder the compressor has to work to generate the heat, which can lead to breakdowns etc.  

There's an argument around at the moment that heat pumps should be sized for the climate in 95% of situations is, which is stable and above 3 degrees, the argument being that when it goes below this, it won't last long and to essentially "suck it up and put a jumper on".  Problem being that elderly people are then at increased risk.  

Then you have the argument of bivalent systems, which is a heat pump, which is then "boosted" by a gas boiler.  So at times when the pump is struggling to reach temperature, the gas boiler kicks in for the extra bit of heat.  This is the solution which makes most sense to me, but it's obviously less "net zero" than a full electric solution.

You can also bivalent with electric room heaters, but that's really artificial.

People in the Med don't have these problems, so they should be going heat pump really quickly.

Electric needs to come down in price, but we need to increase the capacity of the grid or generate more. Gas is cheap, which is why bills don't quite align for people who don't understand how these things work.

I really don't understand this. The countries with the biggest heat pump adoption to date are Skandinavian countries which are generally much colder than the UK.  

[one_ian_taylor]

11 minutes ago, sidcow said:

I really don't understand this. The countries with the biggest heat pump adoption to date are Skandinavian countries which are generally much colder than the UK.  

It may be that a lot of the heat pumps are ground source, rather  than  air source (ground temp fluctuates a lot less over the course  of a year once you get to a depth of 2m or so. 

It's  true that an air source heat pump's efficiency drops with a lower temp. However, it's  still possible to design a system with an ASHP that works well I  sub zero temperatures  - but it might mean a larger system/emitters that don't work as well most of the time.  Having secondary heating for the cold snaps seems sensible, especially given climate change projection data suggests wetter milder winters. 

After going back and forth for a while, I've come to the view that hybrid heat pumps - I.e. ashp with gas boiler for back up/colder days are a waste of time in most situations (exceptions  might be in areas of grid constraint,  and even then probably as a bridging measure)

[lapal_fan]

25 minutes ago, sidcow said:

I really don't understand this. The countries with the biggest heat pump adoption to date are Skandinavian countries which are generally much colder than the UK.  

It can depend on the heat pump.

If you want a heat pump that only does heating and a bit of cooling, it's more efficient.

But in a house you'd generally need a high temperature heat pump, which lowers the efficiency.

[tinker]

Problem with ground source heat pumps is the amount of land required to lay the pipe out horizontally, wonder if there is any benefit in laying the pipe vertically in a deep hole that's bored out, not sure what the logistics of boring a hole out like that but it would save on the amount of land required. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by tinker

[one_ian_taylor]

7 minutes ago, tinker said:

Problem with ground source heat pumps is the amount of land required to lay the pipe out horizontally, wonder if there is any benefit in laying the pipe vertically in a deep hole that's bored out, not sure what the logistics of boring a hole out like that but it would save on the amount of land required. 

Which is often done

[sidcow]

My understanding is that heat pumps still work until the weather reaches absolute zero (so low it will never happen).  Therefore although they need more power in really cold temperatures, they are still always more than 100% efficient and therefore more efficient than gas boilers. 

I sound like a stuck record but the issue here is the artificially high cost of electricity.  When we get to the place (very soon) that the vast majority of our electricity is green, which is massively cheaper than gas, we need to decouple the price of electricity from gas.  This is the major barrier, once electricity is the "true" price heat pumps destroy gas boiler running costs and EV's destroy petrol car running costs. 

This has to happen and soon. 

Hopefully once the tories are out we also see a big increase in land wind turbines which are the very cheapest way to generate electricity. 

Going back to the point of heat pumps overworking in winter and breaking down that's the very first time I've ever heard of this. It makes little sense to me

I've not heard stories of air conditioning units breaking down when it gets too hot due to being overworked. What I do know is that build quality of heat pumps is getting better, they're a world away now from what they were even 10 years ago so maybe these are older models. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by sidcow

[tinker]

Problem with electricity is storage, we can generate it but only if it's windy or sunny. We desperately need battery manufacturers in the UK.

[sidcow]

1 minute ago, tinker said:

Problem with electricity is storage, we can generate it but only if it's windy or sunny. We desperately need battery manufacturers in the UK.

Looks like mechanical storage is more likely. Lots of tech is being looked at to convert old mineshafts.  Huge weights are lifted to the top of the shafts when electricity is plentiful, then lowered powering turbines when it's lower.  

There are thousands of mineshafts in the UK. excellent way to repurpose them. Especially Cornwall with all those tin mines, could be a new economy for a very deprived area.

[one_ian_taylor]

44 minutes ago, tinker said:

Problem with electricity is storage, we can generate it but only if it's windy or sunny. We desperately need battery manufacturers in the UK.

There are other means of storage - pumped storage  like Dinorwig, heat batteries,  and also car batteries. But as you say, renewable  generation is typically intermittent, so a base load is needed, which will probably need to be nuclear.  How much nuclear (and possibly  biomass) is needed dependa on storage, but also things like network flexibility and demand reduction

[one_ian_taylor]

57 minutes ago, sidcow said:

My understanding is that heat pumps still work until the weather reaches absolute zero (so low it will never happen).  Therefore although they need more power in really cold temperatures, they are still always more than 100% efficient and therefore more efficient than gas boilers. 

I sound like a stuck record but the issue here is the artificially high cost of electricity.  When we get to the place (very soon) that the vast majority of our electricity is green, which is massively cheaper than gas, we need to decouple the price of electricity from gas.  This is the major barrier, once electricity is the "true" price heat pumps destroy gas boiler running costs and EV's destroy petrol car running costs. 

This has to happen and soon. 

Hopefully once the tories are out we also see a big increase in land wind turbines which are the very cheapest way to generate electricity. 

Going back to the point of heat pumps overworking in winter and breaking down that's the very first time I've ever heard of this. It makes little sense to me

I've not heard stories of air conditioning units breaking down when it gets too hot due to being overworked. What I do know is that build quality of heat pumps is getting better, they're a world away now from what they were even 10 years ago so maybe these are older models. 

All true, but another part of the puzzle is flexibility, variable pricing and heat storage - e.g. people being able to charge a hot water tank/heat battery when prices are low

There's  also a need to reward people for flexibility, particularly  since demand reduction/shifting peak loads has the potential to reduce infrastructure upgrade costs 

[tinker]

1 minute ago, one_ian_taylor said:

All true, but another part of the puzzle is flexibility, variable pricing and heat storage - e.g. people being able to charge a hot water tank/heat battery when prices are low

There's  also a need to reward people for flexibility, particularly  since demand reduction/shifting peak loads has the potential to reduce infrastructure upgrade costs 

The flexibility issue could be solved by local storage , batteries, I have used  some lifepo4 batteries and they are a real game changer, you can charge and discharge at 1C , 200 amps (12v). So an hour to charge them and an inverter can pull upto to 200 amps from them (for an hour). I reckon my whole house could last 24 hours with 400ah off grid. Which could be charged in the middle of the night from the grid or in the day from solar (take a few hours )

[sidcow]

The other real game changer is the biggest electrical battery in the world Which is the millions of electric cars plugged into the grid in future.

Just 5% of their capacity dedicated to supplying the grid will enable enormous smoothing of the grid. Sell it back at expensive high demand and buy it back at low demand cheaper, and make's little difference to range if you have to disconnect early.

Edited January 31, 2023 by sidcow

[one_ian_taylor]

34 minutes ago, tinker said:

The flexibility issue could be solved by local storage , batteries, I have used  some lifepo4 batteries and they are a real game changer, you can charge and discharge at 1C , 200 amps (12v). So an hour to charge them and an inverter can pull upto to 200 amps from them (for an hour). I reckon my whole house could last 24 hours with 400ah off grid. Which could be charged in the middle of the night from the grid or in the day from solar (take a few hours )

I'm not sure the lifecycle on batteries is good enough yet for mass deployment, though it's improving all the time. Then there's the impact of the extraction of raw materials (again, I understand lower impact options are being developed) etc. 

Water for thermal storage is much less flexible, but much more abundant and lower impact. As with anything energy related though,  it's  a mix of technologies/approaches that's  needed, including demand reduction,  flexibility,  grid level and building  level electricity storage and thermal storage

[tinker]

1 hour ago, one_ian_taylor said:

I'm not sure the lifecycle on batteries is good enough yet for mass deployment, though it's improving all the time. Then there's the impact of the extraction of raw materials (again, I understand lower impact options are being developed) etc. 

Water for thermal storage is much less flexible, but much more abundant and lower impact. As with anything energy related though,  it's  a mix of technologies/approaches that's  needed, including demand reduction,  flexibility,  grid level and building  level electricity storage and thermal storage

5000 cycles for lifepo4, if they are looked after , maybe more with the correct discharge and charge profiles. 

@sidcow the EV as storage is another game changer.

There's options for storage.  For me another big  game changer (for the UK) is tidal power, for an island with a tidal range like we have its a golden opportunity for power generation, it just needs our government to realise it and back it's development. 

[one_ian_taylor]

3 hours ago, tinker said:

5000 cycles for lifepo4, if they are looked after , maybe more with the correct discharge and charge profiles. 

@sidcow the EV as storage is another game changer.

There's options for storage.  For me another big  game changer (for the UK) is tidal power, for an island with a tidal range like we have its a golden opportunity for power generation, it just needs our government to realise it and back it's development. 

Tidal is one I'd  like to know more on. My understanding about Swansea was that the stated benefits v costs and impacts were massively overstated,  but I really  don't  know the detail.  

5000 cycles - pretty decent assuming one per day, and probably stacks up now in economic terms (when I last looked properly  it was pre price rise and fewer cycles)