Team shape, tactics and personnel

[TRO]

On 04/09/2022 at 17:37, DCJonah said:

This kind of ruins the good point from yesterday's game. 

If we were a newly promoted side then I'd get this attitude. 

We've spent a fortune and he's been backed and the CEO has said top half minimum. 

And we're talking like we're Forest. 

No.......

Its nothing to do with newly promoted, its to do with getting the mentality and approach of the team wrong for many seasons.

We are talking like we are aware of walking in to ambushes, now, with that draw....like Arsenal did, against Man U..... believing in their own hype, having bubbles pushed up their jaxy.....and Man U just taught them, that containment away from home, is sometimes prudent, Possession, is great, its kind on the eye, but the counter, can undo it, as Arsenal and Man City found to their cost.

The quote " You have to win the right to play football"......has been lost on us, for seasons now......and this gungho style of open football, has rendered us an inconsistent team....and supported the view of a soft underbelly.

I hope, we are waking up.

We have spent most of our money on attacking players......we have only just woke up to spending on defence.....Our midfield has had very little spent on it, in terms of transfer fee's.

Defending is not a dirty word, its an integral part of the game, that doesn't always get the credit, it deserves....but worked well, helps to win titles.

as they say " attacking fills stadiums, defending fills trophy cupboards " or words to that extent.

We all know to succeed, we need both......but we cannot ignore, defending like we have over the last umpteen seasons.

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by TRO

[DJBOB]

Isn't it funny how not playing McGinn/Ramsay fixes a lot of the personnel issue. But maybe not? Was curious about some of that data.

In Gerrard's 33 games managed, he has started McGinn/Ramsay together a whopping 25 out of 33 times.

Of the 25 games they played together - our record is 10W-4D-11L for 37 points or around 1.48 PPG. That would net us around 56 points - a midtable finish. Respectable, right?

Of the 8 games they did not play together - our record is 1W-2D-5L- for a dismal 5 points or around .63 PPG. Clear relegation.

That's not bad, right? Should point to a pro for starting them together.

The thing is - most of the positive results were before the mini-break. Starting from Feb 9, McGinn/Ramsay started 19 out of 23 possible games together with a record of 5W-4D-10L or 1PPG - relegation danger.

So while I still don't think it's smart to play them together for the vast majority of games, I think they can play together but definitely not in the system that Gerrard wanted. The particular configuration of Kamara-Luiz-McGinn in midfield and JJ playing wide left against certain teams that will control possession might be fruitful.

[nick76]

17 minutes ago, TRO said:

We all know to succeed, we need both......but we cannot ignore, defending like we have over the last umpteen seasons.

55 points the season before last and a record 15 PL clean sheets for Villa in that season suggests otherwise.

[sne]

2 minutes ago, nick76 said:

55 points the season before last and a record 15 PL clean sheets for Villa in that season suggests otherwise.

We also had among the best defenses in the Championship for 2 out of the 3 seasons there. Only the year Bruce got rid of all our CB's and played Jedi there and Tuanzebe at RB was bad. Thankfully Smith came in and fixed it.

[nick76]

8 minutes ago, sne said:

We also had among the best defenses in the Championship for 2 out of the 3 seasons there. Only the year Bruce got rid of all our CB's and played Jedi there and Tuanzebe at RB was bad. Thankfully Smith came in and fixed it.

Additionally the season before last wasn’t we championing Konsa for the England team although he seems now to have lost his way.  Mings got England recognition.  Targett was player of the season recently, Cash has been lauded even to the point we were sweating about A.Madrid stalking him.  Martinez was brilliant 20/21 season.

The first half of 20/21 we were raving about our midfield flying prior to Xmas despite us knowing we still needing a DM and we were standing toe to toe with teams. Smith and Terry had our defensive abilities rocking.  So it’s only the last 18 months our defence has leaked and gone backwards month after month.

Edited September 6, 2022 by nick76

[DCJonah]

22 minutes ago, nick76 said:

55 points the season before last and a record 15 PL clean sheets for Villa in that season suggests otherwise.

I was going to reply to @TRO but this is all that needs to be said. 

[TRO]

1 hour ago, nick76 said:

55 points the season before last and a record 15 PL clean sheets for Villa in that season suggests otherwise.

but the conceding of 3 goals or more to Southampton 4, Leeds, West Ham, Man U and Crystal Palace, 25% of the seasons haul.....Suggest the point stands, it was only 8 goals better than last season.....0.21 of a goal over 38 games.....we conceded 46 as did Brighton in 16th place.

It was also interesting how we kept 13 of the 15 clean sheets, while jack was playing, and only 2 while he was out, despite Emi M having his best season, maybe Jacks hold up play, was missed.....maybe Jack WAS contributing to the defensive side of our game, more than we initially thought?

Makes you wonder.

 

[sne]

Of course Grealish contributed. He allowed us to keep the ball higher up the pitch. Something we are pathetic at these days. Keeping the ball is how good teams defend.

[CVByrne]

1 hour ago, nick76 said:

55 points the season before last and a record 15 PL clean sheets for Villa in that season suggests otherwise.

That season we had a 6 4 split between attack and defence. We had a rapid counter attacking approach and we had Grealish with his best ever season. We managed to take a lot of points off the top teams due to empty stadiums but struggled against the lower teams to break them down.

To consistently be able to compete at the higher ends of the table you need to be able to break down the low block and defend against the counter attacks. You also need to be able to gain points from the top sides.

[nick76]

27 minutes ago, TRO said:

but the conceding of 3 goals or more to Southampton 4, Leeds, West Ham, Man U and Crystal Palace, 25% of the seasons haul

5 games of 38, not sure that’s a brilliant case for your argument mate especially as the other 33 games by your facts was 75% of the goals so 87% of the games we didn’t do so bad?!?!

27 minutes ago, TRO said:

It was also interesting how we kept 13 of the 15 clean sheets, while jack was playing, and only 2 while he was out, despite Emi M having his best season, maybe Jacks hold up play, was missed.....maybe Jack WAS contributing to the defensive side of our game, more than we initially thought?

While not an invalid argument, it obviously less his defensive skills which he wasn’t the greatest at, it was likely the keeping the opposition busy but probably the confidence he gave which surely is what somebody of Gerrard’s stature was supposed to bring because Smith couldn’t do it on his own.  We also had Covid break which went from a team flying to post break we went shocking and that started a few games before Jack got injured.

The fact though is most of these players had a first half of season doing well in Emi, Cash, Mings and Konsa.  We’ve since added French internationals of Digne and Kamara, along with Chambers.  Shouldn’t we be doing better and the confidence that Jack added, Gerrard hasn’t been to able replace himself, in fact he hasn’t even replaced Smiths impact.  

Edited September 6, 2022 by nick76

[nick76]

Just now, CVByrne said:

That season we had a 6 4 split between attack and defence. We had a rapid counter attacking approach and we had Grealish with his best ever season. We managed to take a lot of points off the top teams due to empty stadiums but struggled against the lower teams to break them down.

To consistently be able to compete at the higher ends of the table you need to be able to break down the low block and defend against the counter attacks. You also need to be able to gain points from the top sides.

Does that matter? We aren’t doing any of it with Gerrard. 

[TRO]

26 minutes ago, nick76 said:

5 games of 38, not sure that’s a brilliant case for your argument mate especially as the other 33 games by your facts was 75% of the goals so 87% of the games we didn’t do so bad?!?!

While not an invalid argument, it obviously less his defensive skills which he wasn’t the greatest at, it was likely the keeping the opposition busy but probably the confidence he gave which surely is what somebody of Gerrard’s stature was supposed to bring because Smith couldn’t do it on his own.  We also had Covid break which went from a team flying to post break we went shocking and that started a few games before Jack got injured.

The fact though is most of these players had a first half of season doing well in Emi, Cash, Mings and Konsa.  We’ve since added French internationals of Digne and Kamara, along with Chambers.  Shouldn’t we be doing better and the confidence that Jack added, Gerrard hasn’t been to able replace himself, in fact he hasn’t even replaced Smiths impact.  

The keeping of the ball, is a defensive attribute to me, as well as an offensive attribute.

if they haven't got the ball, they can't hurt you.

you are comparing Gerrards first season with DS's third season.....I think there is a disparity in working time there, mate.

[Tomaszk]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

It's nothing to do with newly promoted, its to do with getting the mentality and approach of the team wrong for many seasons.

Many seasons?

We got 55 points in 2021. Be good if Gerrard can replicate that.

Be good if any manager could to be honest. Can see it being another two seasons.

[nick76]

29 minutes ago, TRO said:

The keeping of the ball, is a defensive attribute to me, as well as an offensive attribute.

if they haven't got the ball, they can't hurt you.

you are comparing Gerrards first season with DS's third season.....I think there is a disparity in working time there, mate.

Smiths first season was in the Championship, his second season avoiding relegation. The third season are comparative because Smith had to build three teams, one per season whereas Gerrard had a midtable team at his disposal ready for him.  Plus Gerrard is supposed to be the upgrade manager to get more out of the team and I would thought he’d have more advantage in this comparison.

Edited September 6, 2022 by nick76

[TRO]

5 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Smiths first season was in the Championship, his second season avoiding relegation. The third season are comparative because Smith had to build three teams, one per season whereas Gerrard had a midtable team at his disposal ready for him.  Plus Gerrard is supposed to be the upgrade manager to get more out of the team and I would have more advantage in this comparison.

I have said it all Nick, folk must be bored now.

[DCJonah]

27 minutes ago, TRO said:

The keeping of the ball, is a defensive attribute to me, as well as an offensive attribute.

if they haven't got the ball, they can't hurt you.

you are comparing Gerrards first season with DS's third season.....I think there is a disparity in working time there, mate.

What's the problem with this?

What's the point in hiring Gerrard' if we've got to wait 3 years to even get back to where we managed with the previous manager before we can them compare? 

[TRO]

1 minute ago, DCJonah said:

What's the problem with this?

What's the point in hiring Gerrard' if we've got to wait 3 years to even get back to where we managed with the previous manager before we can them compare? 

Sorry, DC Shop is closed......Nick has wore me out.

Even boxers only do 12 rounds and one opponent.

[KentVillan]

34 minutes ago, TRO said:

you are comparing Gerrards first season with DS's third season.....I think there is a disparity in working time there, mate.

Gerrard has a more expensive squad than Smith ever had, though? Smith got us promoted from a standing start, and then did two squad rebuilds. I think it's a fair comparison, on balance.

[CVByrne]

1 hour ago, nick76 said:

Does that matter? We aren’t doing any of it with Gerrard. 

It matters because that's the blueprint from trying to move from bottom half Prem team with a focus on solid defense at expense of attack. To a te who can compete in top half consistently 

[nick76]

27 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

It matters because that's the blueprint from trying to move from bottom half Prem team with a focus on solid defense at expense of attack. To a te who can compete in top half consistently 

Sorry, my point was we aren’t doing any of it because we don’t seem to have a game plan that is workable and it seems to change game to game as you have pointed out previously.  I agreed with your original premise, my point was Gerrard isn’t doing anything like that so at the moment it doesn’t matter.