Team shape, tactics and personnel

[CVByrne]

On 17/09/2022 at 15:30, nepal_villan said:

Hardly played out of the back yesterday. We lose so much possession as a result of punting so many balls upfield. 

Less chance of giving ball away in dangerous areas. I think it's get points on the board mode right now. We'll reintroduce some of the passing and building from the back down the line. 

We lost Carlos who is key for that so difficult for us to develop especially when confidence is low. A win and a draw from next two games should get us some more confidence

[PieFacE]

I know it's beating a dead horse at this point, but it still utterly baffles me that with the team we've built we still have not seen a 4-2-3-1 yet.

                  Watkins
Coutinho - Buendia - Bailey
            Kamara - Luiz

That team looks excellent to me. Let the attacking players do the attacking stuff. Keep Kamara and Luiz holding. Keep the fullbacks playing as full backs and only have one of them joining the attack at any point depending on which side of the pitch we're building from. Keep Bailey wide to stretch the pitch a bit. 

It all seems so simple. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by PieFacE

[romavillan]

5 hours ago, CVByrne said:

Less chance of giving ball away in dangerous areas. I think it's get points on the board mode right now. We'll reintroduce some of the passing and building from the back down the line. 

We lost Carlos who is key for that so difficult for us to develop especially when confidence is low. A win and a draw from next two games should get us some more confidence

Smith managed alright with Ming's and Konsa. Really more down to bad coaching, I've seen serie c teams playing it out from the back. The players need to know where to be to give at least one easy out ball, backwards or sideways no bother, just give a couple of easy options to keep it.

[CVByrne]

9 hours ago, romavillan said:

Smith managed alright with Ming's and Konsa. Really more down to bad coaching, I've seen serie c teams playing it out from the back. The players need to know where to be to give at least one easy out ball, backwards or sideways no bother, just give a couple of easy options to keep it.

Smith had 6 / 4 split defence to attack because we had Grealish.

[Vive_La_Villa]

10 hours ago, romavillan said:

Smith managed alright with Ming's and Konsa. Really more down to bad coaching, I've seen serie c teams playing it out from the back. The players need to know where to be to give at least one easy out ball, backwards or sideways no bother, just give a couple of easy options to keep it.

Whilst I’m not disagreeing with you does it really need coaching for a Premier league player to know how to move in to space to receive a ball?

[Zatman]

21 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

Smith had 6 / 4 split defence to attack because we had Grealish.

And we have a 6/4 split now as well

[VillaParkAvenue]

1 minute ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Whilst I’m not disagreeing with you does it really need coaching for a Premier league player to know how to move in to space to receive a ball?

Maybe more to do with players having instructions to act differently (i e be in other areas of the pitch).

Considering how much coaching these days goes into setting up pressing traps, you’d hope some coaching is done on how to escape them as well.

[RichiBoi11]

I know a few on here have already pointed this out multiple times, but the lack of even attempting to play 4231 is truly baffling. The large majority of our squad are equipped in a way that this would play to their biggest strengths. It would allow Mings and Konsa more protection and less pressure to challenge for everything. It would give the fullbacks more respite as they only need to push forward when play is on their side (Young especially would benefit from this when Cash is out). The large majority of our central midfielders are perfect to play in that two, Kamara, Luiz, Dendoncker, EVEN the likes of Nakamba could be effective next to a more expansive deep lying playmaker. The attacking three would allow Buendia, Countinho and Bailey all to get more minutes, but you still have options as Ramsey can play in most of those roles too and be an asset with his driving runs. Watkins would have more support and it could even potentially allow enough attacking play for Ings to play up top alone without being a passenger.

I can only see one reason this hasn't been tried. There's nowhere to fit McGinn in to that system. Maybe a new manager would see sense and at least try this, but as long as McGinn is captain and undroppable it wouldn't work. (By the way I am in no way anti McGinn, I just think he's the weakest link if we switch to the most logical formation that benefits the rest of the squad)

[CVByrne]

We've two players who are are clearly excellent at getting forward in McGinn and Ramsey and they're hamstrung by the system. If they played attacking 8 roles like City do then they would be better. To do that we need the full backs to be more defensive and play with wide forwards. The proper 4 3 3.

We don't have wide forwards other than Bailey. We have one attacking full back and we've one who is a great defender (Cash). 

If we have Coutinho and Bailey holding the width and coming in off the wide areas and have JJ and McGinn getting into the box to finish chances from Midfield then we will be a better attacking outfit. 

To do that though is a significant climb down for Gerrard with how the full backs and 8s play. It might be easier for him to go to a 4 2 3 1 as then one or other of the full backs are required to get forward into attack. Naturally with Coutinho on left and Digne that side we could keep Digne providing width and have Bailey the other side. Cash joins the midfield 2 and they shuffle left to cover Digne.

The issue is JJ and McGinn don't fit together in this system. Luiz Kamara Dendoncker are the ones for the 2 with JJ or McGinn for the 10 as we need those goal scoring players behind Watkins.

We have the players, we just need to find a system tweak that works. It needs a change to the 8s and fullbacks 

[Tom13]

1 hour ago, CVByrne said:

We've two players who are are clearly excellent at getting forward in McGinn and Ramsey

Disagree, McGinn is not excellent in attacking areas.

[duke313]

Since Gerrard is constantly chopping and changing, why doesn't he try 3 at the back?  A 3421 or 3412 could work with the players we have.

[sne]

5 minutes ago, duke313 said:

Since Gerrard is constantly chopping and changing, why doesn't he try 3 at the back?  A 3421 or 3412 could work with the players we have.

At least when Cash and Digne was fit.

[duke313]

4 minutes ago, sne said:

At least when Cash and Digne was fit.

Not sure about Augustinsson, but Young played as a wing back in a back 5 under Conte at Inter.

[sne]

Just now, duke313 said:

Not sure about Augustinsson, but Young played as a wing back in a back 5 under Conte at Inter.

He did, but I don't think he has the legs for it anymore tbh. He might.

Augustinsson has a good cross and doesn't mind getting forward, but not sure he's played much if any in a back 5. Don't think he did for BP, IFK Göteborg, FCK or Sweden at least. Don't think he did for Bremen either but not sure.

[tomsky_11]

6 hours ago, CVByrne said:

We've two players who are are clearly excellent at getting forward in McGinn and Ramsey and they're hamstrung by the system. If they played attacking 8 roles like City do then they would be better. To do that we need the full backs to be more defensive and play with wide forwards. The proper 4 3 3.

We don't have wide forwards other than Bailey. We have one attacking full back and we've one who is a great defender (Cash). 

If we have Coutinho and Bailey holding the width and coming in off the wide areas and have JJ and McGinn getting into the box to finish chances from Midfield then we will be a better attacking outfit. 

To do that though is a significant climb down for Gerrard with how the full backs and 8s play. It might be easier for him to go to a 4 2 3 1 as then one or other of the full backs are required to get forward into attack. Naturally with Coutinho on left and Digne that side we could keep Digne providing width and have Bailey the other side. Cash joins the midfield 2 and they shuffle left to cover Digne.

The issue is JJ and McGinn don't fit together in this system. Luiz Kamara Dendoncker are the ones for the 2 with JJ or McGinn for the 10 as we need those goal scoring players behind Watkins.

We have the players, we just need to find a system tweak that works. It needs a change to the 8s and fullbacks 

Not sure how reflective of the set up throughout the whole game but this highlights from the Southampton game certainly suggest a shift to just this.

Here's one of the highlights. Coutinho is situated left touchline, Digne in line with back four, McGinn and Ramsey in more central positions than they might be if full backs were set to push forward and the midfielders cover. Move starts with a long pass from Mings...

...to Bailey wide right, on the touchline keeping the width like Coutinho is on the left. Ramsey has advances towards the inside right channel and beyond Bailey...

...who in this instance cuts infield. Coutinho on the left is still maintaining width. McGinn has now come into the picture, more advanced than Bailey and ultimately ends up in the box alongside Watkins. Young has also entered the shot, and might expect him to move into the space just vacated by Bailey, but he doesn't and holds position not far past where he is in this shot.

Here's another example. Watkins challenges for high ball while Coutinho and Bailey move forward in support. Watkins loses aerial challenge...

...but defender's header goes straight to Coutinho. Bailey having made run for flick on turns to find space wide right as Coutinho advances. Digne is now turning backwards to cover Saints player and Young also holds position rather than filling the huge open space in front of him, while the two 8s both look to advance. Coutinho...

...ends up on the edge of the box being dispossessed. But at this point we now have a front five left to right of McGinn-Coutinho-Ramsey-Watkins-Bailey. Neither of the full backs are close to the final third...

...and that remains the case when the ball is fairly quickly won back, ultimately resulting in a shot just wide by Bailey.

This isn't to say the full backs spent the whole game sat back, at least in Digne's case, as this earlier highlight shows. Initially Coutinho receives while still occupying the far left space, but this time...

...it's Digne rather than McGinn who advances, making an overlapping run as Coutinho cuts inside. Ramsey has still advanced rather than Young though, making a central run while Bailey maintains the width on the right.

There's another example of Digne going forward in the highlights, though in this case he's the sixth player to join the attack, arriving later following a McGinn run with the ball into the wide left. By the time McGinn arrives on the far left side with the ball, the five Villa players beyond the 18 yard line, from left to right, are McGinn-Buendia-Ings-Watkins-Dendoncker, so again the front three plus the two 8s.

As I said above, this is just from the (unsurprisingly fairly short) "extended highlights" from AVTV, so may not necessarily be reflective of the entire game, though it would perhaps suggest most of our best moments in the game occurred when we set up exactly as you've suggested we should, with the front three plus the two 8s forming our front 5 in attack.

[tomsky_11]

Ok so avg positions from Saints game are interesting compared to other games this season…

Here’s West Ham:

 

…and Everton:

 

… now, Saints:

 

 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

58 minutes ago, tomsky_11 said:

Ok so avg positions from Saints game are interesting compared to other games this season…

Here’s West Ham:

 

…and Everton:

 

… now, Saints:

 

 

Yes, Southampton was much more balanced.

Remember we were almost bizarrely trying to overload West Ham on the left, and I was wondering.

Then I found an article about Critchley with examples of him using this tactic at Blackpool in some games.

Think I posted these in here as I was wondering myself.

Southampton the general shape seemed alot more stable and central.

Would be interesting to see these next to the City shape as well.

[tomsky_11]

3 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Yes, Southampton was much more balanced.

Remember we were almost bizarrely trying to overload West Ham on the left, and I was wondering.

Then I found an article about Critchley with examples of him using this tactic at Blackpool in some games.

Think I posted these in here as I was wondering myself.

Southampton the general shape seemed alot more stable and central.

Would be interesting to see these next to the City shape as well.

Obvs Cash in first image looks odd cos of limited game time, but Young in his place looks more normal. Unsurprisingly everyone (bar Watkins) is deeper. Bailey almost same position though.

[IrishVilla10]

On 22/09/2022 at 11:14, RichiBoi11 said:

I know a few on here have already pointed this out multiple times, but the lack of even attempting to play 4231 is truly baffling. The large majority of our squad are equipped in a way that this would play to their biggest strengths. It would allow Mings and Konsa more protection and less pressure to challenge for everything. It would give the fullbacks more respite as they only need to push forward when play is on their side (Young especially would benefit from this when Cash is out). The large majority of our central midfielders are perfect to play in that two, Kamara, Luiz, Dendoncker, EVEN the likes of Nakamba could be effective next to a more expansive deep lying playmaker. The attacking three would allow Buendia, Countinho and Bailey all to get more minutes, but you still have options as Ramsey can play in most of those roles too and be an asset with his driving runs. Watkins would have more support and it could even potentially allow enough attacking play for Ings to play up top alone without being a passenger.

I can only see one reason this hasn't been tried. There's nowhere to fit McGinn in to that system. Maybe a new manager would see sense and at least try this, but as long as McGinn is captain and undroppable it wouldn't work. (By the way I am in no way anti McGinn, I just think he's the weakest link if we switch to the most logical formation that benefits the rest of the squad)

It seems so obvious to everyone but the men in charge

[IrishVilla10]

 Into our target men