Team shape, tactics and personnel

[picicata]

2 hours ago, CVByrne said:

I do think we're better set up to play the bigger teams with Bailey in the side and quick transition goals being the three we've scored this season. We also are forced to be more compact and defensive so not leaving acres of space for opposition players to run into

We might get something from Arsenal and City games. 

Our points haul against the bigger teams in the league suggest that this isn't the case. You never know though, hopefully we will get a nice surprise over the coming weeks.

[Talldarkandransome]

6 hours ago, PieFacE said:

This lad who's not even a Villa fan can see the glaring issues with Gerrard's system. If he can see it, why can't Gerrard?
 

 

71% pass accuracy for McGinn is very generous

[Mantis]

36 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

We have, in the sense that some of them (7/27) are still here in some capacity. Of the squad that just about survived in the 19/20 season, we still have:

Tyrone Mings

John McGinn

Ezri Konsa

Douglas Luiz

Anwar El Ghazi

Marvelous Nakamba

Kortney Hause

The last 4 players in that list played a combined 25 minutes this season (Douglas Luiz sub appearances). El Ghazi is currently training with the kids. Hause is about to leave on loan. And Nakamba is backup for the backup. 

Hardly what I'd call an influential nucleus of the team that survived 3 years ago. We've long moved past this, as evidenced by the 55 point season that followed directly after.

I don't think it's Gerrard being punished here, but more the board. Gerrard didn't do anything wrong. He'd have been a fool to turn down such a huge job with extortionate wages. It was on the board to appoint someone to really push us on, and not someone who's still learning the ropes as a manager at the top level. 

Honestly I think a lot of our problems stem from the fact that although we've moved on from most of the 19/20 squad, our midfield is still for some reason built around McGinn, who Gerrard refuses to drop no matter what.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Mantis

[picicata]

1 hour ago, daft said:

The formation isn't the issue at all. I don't get the fixation on formation. It's the shapes those formations morph into in the various phases of the game, and the patterns of play those formations enable. And that is where we are failing. We are woeful in transition, and our defensive shape can at best be described as.. hollow. 

It's as if the team either haven't practiced enough to get timing of runs and passes right, Gerrard and the coaches can't explain it sufficiently well or it's just broken.

I think it's the latter option.

It would seem every opposition manager knows we are weak down our wing because we only have our full backs playing wide. Quite a number have said that they have purposely worked on that because they know it's easy to get 2v1 on our sides. Playing with width in a 4231, for example would negate that to some extent. 

Whatever he is trying isn't working, whether that's because our players don't understand, he doesn't explain it well or it's just flawed doesn't really matter, the result is the same. 

 

[daft]

1 minute ago, picicata said:

It would seem every opposition manager knows we are weak down our wing because we only have our full backs playing wide. Quite a number have said that they have purposely worked on that because they know it's easy to get 2v1 on our sides. Playing with width in a 4231, for example would negate that to some extent. 

Whatever he is trying isn't working, whether that's because our players don't understand, he doesn't explain it well or it's just flawed doesn't really matter, the result is the same. 

 

Indeed, that is down to our attacking shape. I haven't had the stomach to re-watch to analyze, but at times our shape is like a 3-1-15 or something when we attack. In defense I don't even want to know. The other stuff is just starting formation. Ceding space wide isn't necessary a bad thing if you can can handle it. It's just a matter of defending in the way that suits you, and it does not seem to suit us currently, but mostly because our defensive shape seems to be thrown into disarray very easily, not just wide, but centrally as well. We need to rethink and become much more compact and defensively sound before we do anything else. 

[Keyblade]

11 minutes ago, Mantis said:

Honestly I think a lot of our problems stem from the fact that although we've moved on from most of the 19/20 squad, our midfield is still for some reason built around McGinn, who Gerrard refuses to drop no matter what.

It's his worst and most impactful decision in his tenure so far. John McGinn can be a good player for us. But he has to earn that chance. He shouldn't be a guaranteed starter for us, especially in his form. At the very least, you can't pair him with Jacob Ramsey. It's suicide.

[picicata]

24 minutes ago, allani said:

I can't disagree with this statement enough.  Our midfield is **** whatever system we play.  McGinn and JJ lack the defensive discipline required, Luiz isn't strong enough, Nakamba isn't good enough, Sanson hasn't done enough with his limited chances.  Whatever system we play - with those midfielders we are going to struggle.  We might not struggle as much as we do with McGinn and JJ seemingly encouraged to attack at every opportunity.

Emi2 and Couts aren't wide forwards.  We need them to play more centrally so that they can get the ball at the edge of the area and try and work opportunities to slip the CF through.

Ings and Ollie aren't the type of CFs to thrive with wingers - they aren't good enough in the air and Ollie's decision making in terms of attacking space in the box is dreadful.  He has other attributes but he isn't a Number 9.

I think if we play two 6s in Kamara and Luiz and then one 8 or a 10 depending on the opposition, with width provided by actual wide players we would be far more solid. Perfect midfield? No, but certainly less easy to run through.

Currently our 8s are being asked to both add attacking impetus and cover for the full backs which is leading to them doing neither very well. I don't think a new number 8 would look any better doing the current job than the either McGinn of JJ

[TheAuthority]

Potter's Brighton lined up with a 3-4-2-1 this past weekend.

If he came in and had our current squad who would he pick in that formation?

        Chambers Konsa Mings

Cash     Kamara    Louis     Digne

             Buendia      Ramsay

                     Watkins

[TRO]

7 hours ago, stewiek2 said:

Defensively a shambles. Comfortable against Everton and their first attack leads to a corner which we defended shambolically, then looked shakey the rest of the game. It doesn't help the defence that the midfield gives them absolutely no protection at all, and Digne and Cash being instructed to not even bother with their defensive duties.

Whenever, I see us play on the TV.....I don't see the 2 defensive lines, that other teams create, when on the back foot or retreating......I just see a gaggle of geese all panicking.

Since John Terry left the defensive organisation has gone to hell.

Edited August 22, 2022 by TRO

[TRO]

7 minutes ago, TheAuthority said:

Potter's Brighton lined up with a 3-4-2-1 this past weekend.

If he came in and had our current squad who would he pick in that formation?

        Chambers Konsa Mings

Cash     Kamara    Louis     Digne

             Buendia      Ramsay

                     Watkins

My suspicion is, plenty in the fan base would be opposed to that.

we are still too gungho, in our attitude to the game.

[gwi1890]

Always talk about trying to emulate Liverpool with the fullbacks but Diaz and Salah provide the width for Liverpool the fullbacks at times are inverted, our system is bizarre the only outlet is Dinge and Cash.

Edited August 22, 2022 by gwi1890

[Made In Aston]

We seem to have been inspired by the Everton &  Man Utd style recruitment policy.  It's no surprise we are all under performing. The clubs that are adopting a smart modern approach like Palace, Brentford and Newcastle are leading the way. It won't be long before we turn into a feeder club for them if we don't sort it out. 

[duke313]

26 minutes ago, gwi1890 said:

Always talk about trying to emulate Liverpool with the fullbacks but Diaz and Salah provide the width for Liverpool the fullbacks at times are inverted, our system is bizarre the only outlet is Dinge and Cash.

A simple tweak would be is Digne goes forward, Cash doesn’t and vice versa.

[CVByrne]

6 minutes ago, duke313 said:

A simple tweak would be is Digne goes forward, Cash doesn’t and vice versa.

That requires other players to provide width and we only have one wide player at the club in Bailey who can do that 

[Zatman]

6 minutes ago, duke313 said:

A simple tweak would be is Digne goes forward, Cash doesn’t and vice versa.

Its pretty much how full back play is usually done unless are an elite team or play a back 5

[DJBOB]

I think ironically enough - Liverpool showing the same defensive frailties that Villa are showing when you're not 100% engaged in this system and they don't have the magic of Mane/Firmino/Salah at the height of their powers.

The space behind the fullbacks exposed on the counter. Too easy to go 2v1 and 3v2 down the flanks against the FB/CM combo. A midfield (laughable with Elliot/Milner/Henderson) that is neither athletic enough nor fast enough to cover the space left behind by bombing fullbacks.

If you play 4321, then you need to fill out a midfield 5 or defend in a 442. This idea that they can defend the flanks with just the fullback and center-mid on that particular side is being torn apart. It's too easy to overload and the 3 forwards end up chasing air. The 4312 might result in some better attack positioning on the counter, but has the same issues again. The number 8 CM's being asked to cover too much ground and the fullbacks often defending 2v1.

Gerrard really has a feeling of "just vibes" after sticking the formation on the team sheet. No nuance of defending in different shapes against certain opponents and then targeting weaknesses when in possession. Just clueless man.

Edited August 22, 2022 by DJBOB
Additional nonsense

[duke313]

10 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

I think ironically enough - Liverpool showing the same defensive frailties that Villa are showing when you're not 100% engaged in this system and they don't have the magic of Mane/Firmino/Salah at the height of their powers.

The space behind the fullbacks exposed on the counter. Too easy to go 2v1 and 3v2 down the flanks against the FB/CM combo. A midfield (laughable with Elliot/Milner/Henderson) that is neither athletic enough nor fast enough to cover the space left behind by bombing fullbacks.

If you play 4321, then you need to fill out a midfield 5 or defend in a 442. This idea that they can defend the flanks with just the fullback and center-mid on that particular side is being torn apart. It's too easy to overload and the 3 forwards end up chasing air. The 4312 might result in some better attack positioning on the counter, but has the same issues again. The number 8 CM's being asked to cover too much ground and the fullbacks often defending 2v1.

Gerrard really has a feeling of "just vibes" after sticking the formation on the team sheet. No nuance of defending in different shapes against certain opponents and then targeting weaknesses when in possession. Just clueless man.

Good assessment. If Gerrard is too stupid or stubborn to change it, then he’ll be sacked.

[DJBOB]

19 minutes ago, duke313 said:

Good assessment. If Gerrard is too stupid or stubborn to change it, then he’ll be sacked.

The ironic part is that he identified the problems when he came on in terms of spacing. Too big of a gap between defense to midfield to attack. The "three lines" he likes to refer it to.

The problem is that he seems clueless or helpless to implement the solution.

He can still play the 4321 but has to set them up differently in attack and defense.

In defense, either defend as a midfield 5 and flood the midfield, forcing opponents to either go over the top or tight through a packed 3 man midfield or defend in a 442. You can even do this playing Ramsay/McGinn! Simply have Ramsay play as a LM in defense and Buendias a RM in defense and leave the speed of Watkins/Bailey up top.

In attack, split Kamara between the CB's and have the CB's slightly wider to defend the flanks. Mings and Konsa are no slouches in the open field but are often too far away in starting position to defend against the counter. McGinn and Ramsay can then play more centrally instead of hanging out by the touchline while Digne and Cash can continue to provide the width. The two number 10's play closer to the striker for better interplay. Now - the personnel here doesn't really fit that, but it could still work in theory. This 325 in attack is essentially what Tuchel's Chelsea does. By occupying the backline with the 3 forwards and having the two 8's sitting right outside the box. In this configuration, either the number 8 or the fullback will be free on the back post once the ball is pushed to one side. But I personally don't think Villa have the attacking personnel to pull that off.

Edited August 22, 2022 by DJBOB

[MaVilla]

2 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

Potter's Brighton lined up with a 3-4-2-1 this past weekend.

If he came in and had our current squad who would he pick in that formation?

        Chambers Konsa Mings

Cash     Kamara    Louis     Digne

             Buendia      Ramsay

                     Watkins

i like the idea, but i dont like Konsa right now, to be brutally honest, including loan players, i would go:

                    Martinez

Chambers - Hause - Mings

KKH - Kamara - Luiz - Digne

     Buendia - Coutinho

              Watkins

we would be a huge threat with corners/free kicks, and a lot better defensively for sure against free kicks/corners.

i think 3421/343/3412 would really suit our developing youth players also.

Edited August 22, 2022 by MaVilla

[Keyblade]

Jacob Ramsey and John McGinn both being in the bottom 22% of midfielders for passes attempted is a big problem. Just 20 completed passes by McGinn against Palace. How are we meant to keep the ball?