The Midfield Three

[Tom13]

McGinn has photo evidence of Dean Smith's affair with Steven Gerrard. Leaving Sanson permanently puzzled.

[Zatman]

2 hours ago, Made In Aston said:

I think the problem with our midfield is that none of them really excel at anything. None of them are excellent at keeping the ball, passing, tackling or closing passing lines. Ramsey is probably the exception in that he is excellent at driving forward with the ball. That is why Mcginn and Luiz are expendable under a possession based system. 

Luiz is really good with his passing and Ramsey is good at driving with the ball. Sanson is good at passing and pressing 

Our manager wont play them together as he prefers a guy who tells jokes

[Anything11]

1 hour ago, Zatman said:

Luiz is really good with his passing and Ramsey is good at driving with the ball. Sanson is good at passing and pressing 

Our manager wont play them together as he prefers a guy who tells jokes

Go touch some grass mate. Every thread is just you having a massive cry and it is tiresome and boring.

The team needs a proper player in the holding position. Dougie is doing his best but he ain't it.

[peterw]

When we won 3 on the bounce there were no complaints about the midfield, rather a reflection of how well we played as a team and that midfield 3 in particular.Now we've lost two the criticism is rounding on them. And that's the nub. The 3 are inconsistent and when they're good they're very good. When the opposition close down their space they lack that little bit extra to break teams down, or stop the oppositions movement and transition quickly, and competently, into attack. That's why there needs to be changes. The inconcistency. To that end I reckon Gerrard would like to through Chukwuemeka in, but why develop a player if he isn't going to sign on? Its the catch 22 scenario. Play him and he may sign, but play him and he may show other clubs who know he may not sign, a reason to want to dangle a contract and a promise under his nose.

I'm also not convinced about Nakamba either. He played well enough before the injury, but those of us that have seen him longer than Gerrard has have seen that he can be good, but also bang average. A bit like a microcosm of our midfield. Luckily, Gerraqrd was a midfielder and you'd think he'd know a bit about how to get a midfield together and what is needed. It may be, and will be, that we have to muddle through and just get this season done and use the summer to change things around. I would expect to see quite a few exits from our midfield and from the wide areas and potentially could have Traore, McGinn, Sanson, Luiz, El Ghazi, Ings all leaving. if they did I think we'd replace with 3 or 4 top quality and the space created would convince Chukwuemeka to stay.

[CVByrne]

4 hours ago, peterw said:

When we won 3 on the bounce there were no complaints about the midfield, rather a reflection of how well we played as a team and that midfield 3 in particular.Now we've lost two the criticism is rounding on them. And that's the nub. The 3 are inconsistent and when they're good they're very good. When the opposition close down their space they lack that little bit extra to break teams down, or stop the oppositions movement and transition quickly, and competently, into attack. That's why there needs to be changes. The inconcistency. To that end I reckon Gerrard would like to through Chukwuemeka in, but why develop a player if he isn't going to sign on? Its the catch 22 scenario. Play him and he may sign, but play him and he may show other clubs who know he may not sign, a reason to want to dangle a contract and a promise under his nose.

I'm also not convinced about Nakamba either. He played well enough before the injury, but those of us that have seen him longer than Gerrard has have seen that he can be good, but also bang average. A bit like a microcosm of our midfield. Luckily, Gerraqrd was a midfielder and you'd think he'd know a bit about how to get a midfield together and what is needed. It may be, and will be, that we have to muddle through and just get this season done and use the summer to change things around. I would expect to see quite a few exits from our midfield and from the wide areas and potentially could have Traore, McGinn, Sanson, Luiz, El Ghazi, Ings all leaving. if they did I think we'd replace with 3 or 4 top quality and the space created would convince Chukwuemeka to stay.

I think the issue people have with the midfield 3 depends on the pressure they are put under. West Ham are a big physical team with a top 4 level combination in Rice / Soucek. Then with Arsenal they play a high press trying to win the ball back from us higher up the field in dangerous areas. 

With Brighton, Southampton and Leeds we were allowed to build from the back under no pressure which meant it was easier to get the ball to the attacking players. When Ings plays instead of Buendia we have more attacking movement and threat as he tries to get into the goal scoring chances and he will run the channels too. While Buendia drops deeper and likes to play the through balls from centrally.

Also lacking that defensively minded CDM we concede too many goals in transition / counter attack because our midfield three are attack minded players.

[peterw]

Not trying to go over old ground but I was disappointed with the starting system because it was clear that it was as wrong against Arsenal as was the diamond against West Ham. We haven't got enough quality to play the way we want to against a physical team that look to squeeze the midfield and so should have looked to use width more. That said, losing Digne and elying on Young was always going to be a problem for the diamond v West ham. Arsenal was just baffling. It's not so much the high press but that they flooded space in the middle and we ineffect took one player out of the middle to play two 10s. The shape was wrong and we were unable to close the lines/angles because of it. In effect we were reacting to Arsenal and not trying to impose our game because we couldn't react to their shape. It was frustrating to watch and didn't reflect particulalry well on Gerrard or the coaches.

Edited March 22, 2022 by peterw

[Indigo]

I'm a big fan of both McGinn and Ramsey, but yeah, it's terribly difficult to maintain control or possession in a game when they're making up 2 of a 3 man midfield. Ramsey is young so will probably get there eventually, but his main strength has been his ball carrying. As tends to be the case for young lads games often pass him by and he doesn't see a huge amount of the ball, and subsequently makes less passes etc in the process. McGinn is a great player on his day, so all-action and dynamic but the guy just doesn't move the ball quickly or play short passes, he's something like bottom 2% for the latter and it shows. 

We obviously have further issues - lack of width, Konsa seemingly being unable to play out from defense and so forth - with being able to build out and control possession properly, but I don't think the qualities of the midfield outside of Luiz hugely aids it either. 

[duke313]

8 hours ago, peterw said:

When we won 3 on the bounce there were no complaints about the midfield, rather a reflection of how well we played as a team and that midfield 3 in particular.Now we've lost two the criticism is rounding on them. And that's the nub. The 3 are inconsistent and when they're good they're very good. When the opposition close down their space they lack that little bit extra to break teams down, or stop the oppositions movement and transition quickly, and competently, into attack. That's why there needs to be changes. The inconcistency. To that end I reckon Gerrard would like to through Chukwuemeka in, but why develop a player if he isn't going to sign on? Its the catch 22 scenario. Play him and he may sign, but play him and he may show other clubs who know he may not sign, a reason to want to dangle a contract and a promise under his nose.

I'm also not convinced about Nakamba either. He played well enough before the injury, but those of us that have seen him longer than Gerrard has have seen that he can be good, but also bang average. A bit like a microcosm of our midfield. Luckily, Gerraqrd was a midfielder and you'd think he'd know a bit about how to get a midfield together and what is needed. It may be, and will be, that we have to muddle through and just get this season done and use the summer to change things around. I would expect to see quite a few exits from our midfield and from the wide areas and potentially could have Traore, McGinn, Sanson, Luiz, El Ghazi, Ings all leaving. if they did I think we'd replace with 3 or 4 top quality and the space created would convince Chukwuemeka to stay.

I think you're right, we could have an entirely different midfield next season.  Sanson and Luiz (if he doesn't sign a new deal) will most likely move on, and if a good offer came in for McGinn, he could be sold.

------------- New DM/Nakamba ------------------
-----Ramsey --------------------- New CM --------

[Made In Aston]

14 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

A midfield of modern Gavin McCanns you say?

Something like that, but not quite as tragic! Jack of all trades. 

[bobzy]

I find the focus on the midfield three quite interesting given that, statistically (very crudely), they've been 3 of the best players for us this season.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

31 minutes ago, Made In Aston said:

Something like that, but not quite as tragic! Jack of all trades. 

We've had quite a selection of BANG Average midfielders in our modern history haven't we?

[sheepyvillian]

On 16/02/2022 at 19:03, TRO said:

Nothing is stopping him.....Its not in his DNA.....He is a passive, player, who chaperons the opponent, as opposed to unsettling them, waiting for the mistake to pick up the loose ball.....for Brazil he has Casemiro to do the ugly bits.

Dougie is more a silky player, who passing skills are put to good use, when someone else wins the ball......sure someone will be able to pick out a moment, when he does win it back, but its all too rare......No marauding raider is likely to fear him, or be put of by his presence.

If we had a likely lad in the middle dominating and putting the fear of god in to opponents......Doug would be a good, sound player.

Rodri or Fernandino in the middle and Dougie would thrive.

Pep was bigging him up at one time....but he didn't come in for him, did he?

He lacks the pace to be a top quality midfielder, hence Pep not coming back for him. We need a DM with presence. Phillips would be the ideal player for me, but I wouldn't be too disappointed if Luiz were to go.

[Made In Aston]

9 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

We've had quite a selection of BANG Average midfielders in our modern history haven't we?

I can't remember having a really dominant midfield for a long time . Maybe Milner and Barry? 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

41 minutes ago, Made In Aston said:

I can't remember having a really dominant midfield for a long time . Maybe Milner and Barry? 

I was thinking the same thing, so it's not a new phenromenon when it comes to us necessarily.

I remember badly wanting us to sign Papa Bouba Diop from Fulham for a couple of seasons. ( R.I.P )

Edited March 22, 2022 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[TRO]

3 hours ago, Made In Aston said:

I can't remember having a really dominant midfield for a long time . Maybe Milner and Barry? 

you are right...........but, what an indictment.

[TRO]

13 hours ago, bobzy said:

I find the focus on the midfield three quite interesting given that, statistically (very crudely), they've been 3 of the best players for us this season.

shows statistics can be misleading.

[TRO]

17 hours ago, peterw said:

Not trying to go over old ground but I was disappointed with the starting system because it was clear that it was as wrong against Arsenal as was the diamond against West Ham. We haven't got enough quality to play the way we want to against a physical team that look to squeeze the midfield and so should have looked to use width more. That said, losing Digne and elying on Young was always going to be a problem for the diamond v West ham. Arsenal was just baffling. It's not so much the high press but that they flooded space in the middle and we ineffect took one player out of the middle to play two 10s. The shape was wrong and we were unable to close the lines/angles because of it. In effect we were reacting to Arsenal and not trying to impose our game because we couldn't react to their shape. It was frustrating to watch and didn't reflect particulalry well on Gerrard or the coaches.

we couldn't impose our game.....Arsenal negated us.

any permutation of our squad would have made diddly squat......it was check mate.....and they individually and collectively played better.

Tactics will only go so far, they won't always compensate for an imbalanced squad, particularly against complete teams like Arsenal.

[TRO]

9 hours ago, sheepyvillian said:

He lacks the pace to be a top quality midfielder, hence Pep not coming back for him. We need a DM with presence. Phillips would be the ideal player for me, but I wouldn't be too disappointed if Luiz were to go.

He certainly divides opinion, sheepy.

[peterw]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

we couldn't impose our game.....Arsenal negated us.

any permutation of our squad would have made diddly squat......it was check mate.....and they individually and collectively played better.

Tactics will only go so far, they won't always compensate for an imbalanced squad, particularly against complete teams like Arsenal.

Oh i agree in the main but I don't really think that covers it all. They did play better but you can at least try and negate that by setting up differently. if we had another body in the middle or someone else up top to hold the ball up and turn Arsenal's midfield around then it would have made a huge difference. As it was the ball kept coming back and we were not able to keep it tight before trying to impose our game. At the very highest level all it takes is one opportunity and we could have gone 1 up and then it's a different (obviously) ball game and Arsenal also have to re-think.

Clearly better players and better teams usually win. But Arsenal were given an extra hand by us playing to their strenmgths and not ours.

[VillaParkAvenue]

3 hours ago, TRO said:

we couldn't impose our game.....Arsenal negated us.

any permutation of our squad would have made diddly squat......it was check mate.....and they individually and collectively played better.

Tactics will only go so far, they won't always compensate for an imbalanced squad, particularly against complete teams like Arsenal.

If they collectively played better, then that’s tactics isn’t it?