blandy Posted February 10, 2021 Moderator Share Posted February 10, 2021 15 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said: I think the concept is the problem. How many people would prefer to go back to football without VAR? I know that a lot of people are hanging hopes on it somehow getting better and to a point where it just fits seamlessly into the fabric of the game eradicating all bad decisions and making officiating near perfect. But that’s a total fallacy in my opinion. I have the opposite view. I think the concept is excellent. I like the idea that the time of referees or linos making absolute howlers, where anyone (millions) watching on TV can see it's a howler, where half the ground knows it's a howler, yet the result is changed are gone. Many people would no doubt like rid of it, I agree - though I think that's because the implementation has been so poor. They should go back to the concept of the Video Assistant Referee being there to point out to the Ref if there has been a clear and obvious error (a howler). Either an offside decision, a penalty, a sending off. That's it. No fine lines looking at armpits, no second guessing, just flag up "mate, you've got that one horribly wrong, there was no contact, it was a dive in the box" or "he's a yard offside when the ball is played". There would still be errors, even then. But there will be far fewer, and that would be better than no VAR at all. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_avfc Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 Just now, blandy said: I have the opposite view. I think the concept is excellent. I like the idea that the time of referees or linos making absolute howlers, where anyone (millions) watching on TV can see it's a howler, where half the ground knows it's a howler, yet the result is changed are gone. Many people would no doubt like rid of it, I agree - though I think that's because the implementation has been so poor. They should go back to the concept of the Video Assistant Referee being there to point out to the Ref if there has been a clear and obvious error (a howler). Either an offside decision, a penalty, a sending off. That's it. No fine lines looking at armpits, no second guessing, just flag up "mate, you've got that one horribly wrong, there was no contact, it was a dive in the box" or "he's a yard offside when the ball is played". There would still be errors, even then. But there will be far fewer, and that would be better than no VAR at all. Yeah this for me. I almost think that the whole point about different interpretations of the rules from different referees mentioned earlier is irrelevant too. They should be pointing out ridiculously obvious shockers from the referee. Anything that needs a long discussion about whether its right or wrong should be left with the referees decision on the pitch. Trying to micro-referee games is worse to me than not having VAR at all. All its achieving at the moment is confusing the on field referee and we're inevitably seeing wrong decisions made by the VAR overturning correct decisions made by the on field referee. The "clear and obvious" wording was put there for a reason and we seem to have got away from this concept. We're now almost looking for reasons for VAR to get involved rather than waiting for the dreadful decisions which VAR should be there to overturn relatively quickly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, blandy said: I have the opposite view. I think the concept is excellent. I like the idea that the time of referees or linos making absolute howlers, where anyone (millions) watching on TV can see it's a howler, where half the ground knows it's a howler, yet the result is changed are gone. Many people would no doubt like rid of it, I agree - though I think that's because the implementation has been so poor. They should go back to the concept of the Video Assistant Referee being there to point out to the Ref if there has been a clear and obvious error (a howler). Either an offside decision, a penalty, a sending off. That's it. No fine lines looking at armpits, no second guessing, just flag up "mate, you've got that one horribly wrong, there was no contact, it was a dive in the box" or "he's a yard offside when the ball is played". There would still be errors, even then. But there will be far fewer, and that would be better than no VAR at all. Again though, it’s blue sky thinking isn’t it, football is not binary enough to accommodate such a simple solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 10, 2021 Moderator Share Posted February 10, 2021 Just now, bannedfromHandV said: football is not binary enough to accommodate such a simple solution It is in my view. I mean for example, in the before times, we'd be at a game and the lino would flag, and the ref would over-rule him. One official sees something, makes a decision "place yellow flag across chest" to signal a penalty (say) then the ref would go over, talk to the lino and decide "no penalty", or the ref would give a goal, and then the lino would be there flagging, they'd chat, and the goal would get disallowed...and so on. VAR should be like that - the video assistant sees something (serious) and talks to the ref and the ref decides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 Just now, blandy said: It is in my view. I mean for example, in the before times, we'd be at a game and the lino would flag, and the ref would over-rule him. One official sees something, makes a decision "place yellow flag across chest" to signal a penalty (say) then the ref would go over, talk to the lino and decide "no penalty", or the ref would give a goal, and then the lino would be there flagging, they'd chat, and the goal would get disallowed...and so on. VAR should be like that - the video assistant sees something (serious) and talks to the ref and the ref decides. But isn’t that what’s happening except they have the supposed added benefit of also seeing replays themselves pitchside? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 10, 2021 Moderator Share Posted February 10, 2021 Just now, bannedfromHandV said: But isn’t that what’s happening except they have the supposed added benefit of also seeing replays themselves pitchside? I know it's not, but there's no reason it couldn't. I'm fine with the idea of watching it back on a monitor, if necessary, while they talk - though it mostly isn't necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted February 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted February 10, 2021 16 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said: I actually disagree in some respects, I think the concept is the problem. How many people would prefer to go back to football without VAR? I know that a lot of people are hanging hopes on it somehow getting better and to a point where it just fits seamlessly into the fabric of the game eradicating all bad decisions and making officiating near perfect. But that’s a total fallacy in my opinion. It’s beginning to go round in circles, we go from using common sense to people demanding simplification, those two things do not exist in partnership because common sense means different things to different people, even in a narrow context such as football. What one person thinks is deliberate differs from another person, likewise for something reckless (in borderline cases) or cynical. At the start of the season they went with simplified rules for handball, if it hits your arm below the sleeve it’s handball. But then we ended up with the ridiculous decisions which I think culminated in a Spurs player giving away a penalty in the last minute of a game when he wasn’t facing the ball and it was directed at him from about 2 yards away - now that’s an easy one to apply common sense to and it’s why i believe the rules were changed again soon afterwards, but so many other decisions are far less easy to apply common sense to. I actually do feel sorry for the referees now, and I’m not a usual sympathiser. But VAR was supposed to make their jobs easier and it 100% has not, I’d say the only tangible benefit for refs now is that they seem to be getting far less on-field abuse from players, they’re not being chased after and surrounded so often. Then you add in the possibility of it all being used to manipulate results, I mean who knows what the PL may have agreed to in order to keep Liverpool and United from running away to start their own league, but that’s super conspiratorial obvs. Offsides are where it can be, and is used well i would add, I mean you’re either offside or you’re not, but I wonder if they could change the rule (would be a big change) so that you’re only offside if no part of your body is in line with a defender, i.e. your whole body is in advance of the last defender. There will still be times when it’ll become super tight and will need to be worked out but at least then you’re not offside because your nose is in advance of the defender but because your entire body is, makes it less galling potentially. couple of points there...would i want to go back to football without VAR? unsure...to be honest. regarding handball, i maintain that the clear and obvious error rule needs to be applied. if the ref has made a clanger, then VAR gets involved, otherwise the on field decision stands. offside is the one area i totally disagree with the current implementation. it's impossible, with the current technology, to get the decision correct. it's been factually proven that they do not use enough frames per second to identify the exact moment the ball is kicked. i personally think the clear and obvious rule should apply here too. use bigger, chunkier lines, and if it's materially offside then overturn it. otherwise accept that there's a grey area. i'm sure in the next 10 years there will be hawkeye technology to detect offsides, complete with the exact moment the ball is kicked etc. but they're running before they can walk right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted February 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted February 10, 2021 1 hour ago, blandy said: I have the opposite view. I think the concept is excellent. I like the idea that the time of referees or linos making absolute howlers, where anyone (millions) watching on TV can see it's a howler, where half the ground knows it's a howler, yet the result is changed are gone. Many people would no doubt like rid of it, I agree - though I think that's because the implementation has been so poor. They should go back to the concept of the Video Assistant Referee being there to point out to the Ref if there has been a clear and obvious error (a howler). Either an offside decision, a penalty, a sending off. That's it. No fine lines looking at armpits, no second guessing, just flag up "mate, you've got that one horribly wrong, there was no contact, it was a dive in the box" or "he's a yard offside when the ball is played". There would still be errors, even then. But there will be far fewer, and that would be better than no VAR at all. the annoying thing is that this is exactly how it was sold to us in the summer if 2019...though they probably always intended to use the fine lines for offside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 Changes need to be made badly, the last week had shown its not just the offside issue its a complete referee shitshow. When fans are allowed back in they have to show what the referee is watching on the big screen as well. Farcical the fans cant see whats going on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 10, 2021 Moderator Share Posted February 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Zatman said: Changes need to be made badly That's the problem! - they have been made badly 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 22 hours ago, Stevo985 said: I disagree. I think the authority should remain with the referee on the pitch. Pointless. Just use VAR for errors being made - not "maybe this is an error, I'm not sure". That's an absolute waste of time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted February 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted February 10, 2021 the most irritating thing of all, is whilst the in discussion on here we are not all in agreement with each suggestion being made, pretty much every suggestion would improve the process. why can the powers that be not see these?! why is there not a fan consultation? why is there not an interview with someone from PGMOL (if i got that right) with someone putting all the various suggestions to them and have them explain why they have not considered them? i honestly think that's the reason fans are so frustrated. the governing body and the refs themselves just have this force field around them and we never hear any of them speak or address any concerns so fans' only outlet is to rage on the likes of mike dean's family's social media (not that i'm in any way condoning it) would it be so difficult to arrange a meeting with a fan rep of each of the 20 PL clubs? we could submit suggestions to our local supporters club who then feeds upstream to the head of the lions clubs (lee something) who then picks the best 2/3 suggestions to take to the meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted February 10, 2021 33 minutes ago, bobzy said: Pointless. Just use VAR for errors being made - not "maybe this is an error, I'm not sure". That's an absolute waste of time. It’s literally how most other sports uses it. It’s not a waste of time, it allows the same referee to review something he has missed and make his own decision based on it. It keeps consistency. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted February 10, 2021 At the start of the season everyone was saying we should use the monitors more, it’s stupid that the refs can’t make their own decision, the VAR shouldn’t just overrule the ref with no explanation. Now everyone has changed their mind. VAR is shit, but the ref reviewing something he has missed is the entire point 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 7 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: It’s literally how most other sports uses it. It’s not a waste of time, it allows the same referee to review something he has missed and make his own decision based on it. It keeps consistency. If he's "reviewing something his has missed", then he's missed it. Just correct the decision. There's literally no point in reviewing marginal calls to see if a referee wants to overturn his original decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPower_14 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 15 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: It’s literally how most other sports uses it. It’s not a waste of time, it allows the same referee to review something he has missed and make his own decision based on it. It keeps consistency. I think this is for the best as well. If someone in the booth thinks it needs looking at, give the ref another look on a monitor. No overlayed offside lines, no slow motion, just give the same referee a couple of angles at regular speed and if he can't spot anything, the ruling on the field stands. The stupid offside lines are the worst thing to happen to football since vuvuzelas. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted February 10, 2021 31 minutes ago, bobzy said: If he's "reviewing something his has missed", then he's missed it. Just correct the decision. There's literally no point in reviewing marginal calls to see if a referee wants to overturn his original decision. Yeah I don't agree at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 10, 2021 Moderator Share Posted February 10, 2021 I get the feeling sometimes that what's happening at VAR HQ is that a couple of referee's are going "Ah crap, Jon's made a complete mess of that, the press'll be all over him and the fans will have a field day the poor sod. I was out with him and Cheryl last week and he's been struggling, the boy is misbehaving at school and I know his daughter's been ill, what have we got in the rule book Mike?" 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 10, 2021 Moderator Share Posted February 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: I get the feeling sometimes that what's happening at VAR HQ is that a couple of referee's are going "Ah crap, Jon's made a complete mess of that, the press'll be all over him and the fans will have a field day the poor sod. I was out with him and Cheryl last week and he's been struggling, the boy is misbehaving at school and I know his daughter's been ill, what have we got in the rule book Mike?" There seems to be quite a bit of that. I mean I don't actually mind it - sticking up for your colleagues in public, as long as behind the scenes the mistakes get analysed and prevented from being repeated. They've taken it too far, IMO, though. Sometimes it's better to just say "yep, that was a mistake, we've reminded all the refs that it is allowed to [give free kicks against Sky's favourite sides - or whatever the politically correct way of phrasing that is]...." They've dug themselves a big hole, really. But you're right, they are refereeing every 3 or 4 days, then doing a VAR games, training on their own due to the covids, locked down and unable to hold their normal get together sessions to learn lessons and share analysis, all the while getting pilloried and sent death threats and abuse in the twitters, when at the same time the league keeps changing the interpretations and guidance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted February 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted February 10, 2021 13 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: I get the feeling sometimes that what's happening at VAR HQ is that a couple of referee's are going "Ah crap, Jon's made a complete mess of that, the press'll be all over him and the fans will have a field day the poor sod. I was out with him and Cheryl last week and he's been struggling, the boy is misbehaving at school and I know his daughter's been ill, what have we got in the rule book Mike?" surely though fans forget about the ref making the initial error if VAR corrects it? it's where VAR makes a total balls up, the ref gets both barrels for something VAR has made the error on so i actually disagree with this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts