bobzy Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 54 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Yeah I don't agree at all I don't really understand the benefit then, because you'd inevitably be getting into the minutiae of decision making. Do you ask the referee to review the Ings offside call against us? Do you ask him to review sending off David Luiz for Arsenal? Do you ask him, actually, to hold off making any big decisions because he can just review them a few seconds after they happen and just let play flow 'just in case'? The benefit of having an external, video-based referee is that he can review decisions on a screen very quickly and see if an error has been made. No-one cares about incredibly tight offsides or marginal handball calls - just use it for when there has been a clear error and say "sorry ref, but you've got that one wrong". Laws of the game (should be) incredibly clear; you don't need to keep pinging the referee on "possible" incidents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 10, 2021 Moderator Share Posted February 10, 2021 1 hour ago, tomav84 said: surely though fans forget about the ref making the initial error if VAR corrects it? it's where VAR makes a total balls up, the ref gets both barrels for something VAR has made the error on so i actually disagree with this I'm more talking about those instances where the referee makes a balls up and VAR doesn't correct it - where VAR justifies rather than corrects a mistake. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted February 10, 2021 49 minutes ago, bobzy said: I don't really understand the benefit then, because you'd inevitably be getting into the minutiae of decision making. Do you ask the referee to review the Ings offside call against us? Do you ask him to review sending off David Luiz for Arsenal? Do you ask him, actually, to hold off making any big decisions because he can just review them a few seconds after they happen and just let play flow 'just in case'? The benefit of having an external, video-based referee is that he can review decisions on a screen very quickly and see if an error has been made. No-one cares about incredibly tight offsides or marginal handball calls - just use it for when there has been a clear error and say "sorry ref, but you've got that one wrong". Laws of the game (should be) incredibly clear; you don't need to keep pinging the referee on "possible" incidents. Because then there is no pressure on the referee to make any decisions. Any marginal calls he won't bother making because he knows VAR will look at it. So we'd be going to VAR every 5 minutes because the ref is never going to give a penalty or a red card or anything 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 Just now, Stevo985 said: Because then there is no pressure on the referee to make any decisions. Any marginal calls he won't bother making because he knows VAR will look at it. So we'd be going to VAR every 5 minutes because the ref is never going to give a penalty or a red card or anything No - this is what you're wanting, surely? Marginal calls wouldn't even be looked at by VAR as they're marginal. VAR would only be there to overturn factual errors. In your scenario, the ref would be constantly heading to the VAR screen to "have a look". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 3 hours ago, bobzy said: If he's "reviewing something his has missed", then he's missed it. Just correct the decision. There's literally no point in reviewing marginal calls to see if a referee wants to overturn his original decision. I mean if he missed it, surely it's beneficial for him to see it back? It still leaves the responsibility and the interpretation with the on-field ref. Last season was horrible because you'd have the VAR refs trying to protect their colleagues' egos/reputations by not overruling them. Having them go to the monitor leaves everything in their court. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-k Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 I don't recall which manager said it, but one of the main issues is that the game is now being refereed twice: once on-field in real-time, and once hundreds of miles away in slo-mo by some guys in a room. The solution is simple. VAR can monitor in the background if 1) the on-field ref has missed a big decision (e.g., violent conduct away from play) and/or 2) the ref has made a clear and obvious error. The latter means no subjective lines on the screen, no slo-mo replays for 3 minutes, etc. If the VAR ref cannot spot what he/she feels was something obviously missed or a clear error within 30 seconds, then the on-field call stands. If the VAR ref does feel the on-field ref missed something or made a clear error, let the on-field ref watch the replays and make the decision him/herself. VAR should not be making decisions when they are not on the pitch and have no sense of the flow of the game, etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 22 minutes ago, Keyblade said: I mean if he missed it, surely it's beneficial for him to see it back? It still leaves the responsibility and the interpretation with the on-field ref. Last season was horrible because you'd have the VAR refs trying to protect their colleagues' egos/reputations by not overruling them. Having them go to the monitor leaves everything in their court. For me, it's over-refereeing the situation on marginal calls. I'd, personally, much prefer it if things that were demonstrably incorrect (Bednarek's red card, for example) were just overturned. Don't bother sending the ref back to a screen to review something wrong - just change it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, bobzy said: For me, it's over-refereeing the situation on marginal calls. I'd, personally, much prefer it if things that were demonstrably incorrect (Bednarek's red card, for example) were just overturned. Don't bother sending the ref back to a screen to review something wrong - just change it. I wouldn't mind it to be that way, but it brings the issue of undermining the authority of the ref as we saw last season. Not to mention the fact that they contort the meaning of "clear and obvious" in order to prevent the former. We'll see something like Bednarek's red card and the VAR would be like "it's not a clear and obvious error" to protect Mike Dean and nothing is done. At least the way it is now, Mike Dean is rightly copping all of the flak. Because he made the howler, went to the monitor and stuck to his absurd decision. The technology did its job, and it was Dean who didn't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted February 10, 2021 2 hours ago, bobzy said: No - this is what you're wanting, surely? Marginal calls wouldn't even be looked at by VAR as they're marginal. VAR would only be there to overturn factual errors. In your scenario, the ref would be constantly heading to the VAR screen to "have a look". No. I think we’re misunderstanding each other. I want the ref to ref the game as normal. As if VAR isn’t there. If VAR spots something that the ref has missed then he tells the ref he needs to review something. Not everything, but major things that the ref has missed. It would still only be the big incidents, like the Soucek elbow. Basically as it is now but done right I don’t want VAR to have the ability to just overrule the ref and make a decision. To me that would mean the ref has a massive safety net and wouldn’t make any decisions. Why would the ref make a call on a potential red card if he knows he can just leave it to VAR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 10, 2021 Moderator Share Posted February 10, 2021 I want big fat lines like the Dutch. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPower_14 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 I agree totally that a ref is more likely to overturn his or her own decision made in error than a colleague's decision. Keep it for howlers and let the refs review their own footage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 15 hours ago, Stevo985 said: No. I think we’re misunderstanding each other. I want the ref to ref the game as normal. As if VAR isn’t there. If VAR spots something that the ref has missed then he tells the ref he needs to review something. Not everything, but major things that the ref has missed. It would still only be the big incidents, like the Soucek elbow. Basically as it is now but done right I don’t want VAR to have the ability to just overrule the ref and make a decision. To me that would mean the ref has a massive safety net and wouldn’t make any decisions. Why would the ref make a call on a potential red card if he knows he can just leave it to VAR? Again, it’s fallacy, sorry. Match officials are operating differently because of VAR, expecting them to go back to a mindset of pre-VAR but with VAR still in use is impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 8 hours ago, ThunderPower_14 said: I agree totally that a ref is more likely to overturn his or her own decision made in error than a colleague's decision. Keep it for howlers and let the refs review their own footage. What’s the definition of a howler? Who gets to determine what is clear and obvious and what’s not? For someone who’s watched football all their lives and perhaps played it too, certain things may be more clear and obvious than for another person. Who’s going to define what constitutes a howler? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 19 hours ago, Stevo985 said: No. I think we’re misunderstanding each other. I want the ref to ref the game as normal. As if VAR isn’t there. If VAR spots something that the ref has missed then he tells the ref he needs to review something. Not everything, but major things that the ref has missed. It would still only be the big incidents, like the Soucek elbow. Basically as it is now but done right I don’t want VAR to have the ability to just overrule the ref and make a decision. To me that would mean the ref has a massive safety net and wouldn’t make any decisions. Why would the ref make a call on a potential red card if he knows he can just leave it to VAR? I think the part about referees not making decisions is just untrue - it would never happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPower_14 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 5 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said: What’s the definition of a howler? Who gets to determine what is clear and obvious and what’s not? For someone who’s watched football all their lives and perhaps played it too, certain things may be more clear and obvious than for another person. Who’s going to define what constitutes a howler? The referee/s sitting in the VAR booth. Like with referees on field, sometimes they'll want to be more involved than others, it comes down to personality, refereeing style and what side of the bed they got out of that morning. I think all the VAR booth should be doing is inviting the on-field ref to have another look. If we're arguing that "clear and obvious" is unable to be defined or applied consistently, then what constitutes a foul is unable to be defined and applied consistently, and we should just cancel football. If the VAR booth thinks a decision needs another look, let the on-field referee with a good feel for the game have a look and review their own decision from a couple of different angles at regular speed. A lot of laws of football and just about every sport are subjective and open to interpretation. There is literally nothing you can do to stop a section of every supporter base in the world from feeling like they were robbed by the referee after a loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 46 minutes ago, ThunderPower_14 said: The referee/s sitting in the VAR booth. Like with referees on field, sometimes they'll want to be more involved than others, it comes down to personality, refereeing style and what side of the bed they got out of that morning. I think all the VAR booth should be doing is inviting the on-field ref to have another look. If we're arguing that "clear and obvious" is unable to be defined or applied consistently, then what constitutes a foul is unable to be defined and applied consistently, and we should just cancel football. If the VAR booth thinks a decision needs another look, let the on-field referee with a good feel for the game have a look and review their own decision from a couple of different angles at regular speed. A lot of laws of football and just about every sport are subjective and open to interpretation. There is literally nothing you can do to stop a section of every supporter base in the world from feeling like they were robbed by the referee after a loss. But whether something is a foul or not is not clearly defined is it, and yet football has managed just fine for 150 years without the sudden need for everything to be correct, so I don’t think we need to cancel football, we just need to cancel VAR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 11, 2021 Moderator Share Posted February 11, 2021 Watching Wolves against Southampton and Jonathon Moss really is poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightoffyour Posted February 12, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted February 12, 2021 21 hours ago, OutByEaster? said: Watching Wolves against Southampton and Jonathon Moss really is poor. Feeding him can't be cheap 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 What a drèadful referee tonight , he got nothing major wrong but every decision he blew the whistle about 20 seconds after the incident happened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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