The AVFC FFP thread

[CVByrne]

1 hour ago, Demitri_C said:

This could be why we are trying to flog digne off. With his wages off the books we havw a bigger scope with ffp

If we can sell Digne for ~£15m he's flat in in cost to us in FFP. But we also get wages off the books. If we replace with Acuna it might be close to flat or small bit worse in cost. Moving Digne on and replacing just doesn't seem like it's worth it this window, unless Emery needs the full back who can get up and down the left side and dribble

Edited August 15, 2023 by CVByrne

[Czarnikjak]

15 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

If we can sell Digne for ~£15m he's flat in in cost to us in FFP. But we also get wages off the books. If we replace with Acuna it might be close to flat or small bit worse in cost. Moving Digne on and replacing just doesn't seem like it's worth it this window, unless Emery needs the full back who can get up and down the left side and dribble

You would also get Digne amortisation off the books, not just his wages. So you saving annually 6.5m + 5m, even if you sell for no profit.

[VillaChris]

4 hours ago, omariqy said:

So trying to get my head round where we are at with FFP.

2021/22 - we booked a £0.4m profit

2020/21 - we lost £37m 

2019/20 - we lost £99m but £36m of this was COVID losses

Allowable losses are £105m over a 3 year rolling period. Next year the 2019/20 rolls away. So for 2022/23 we should have allowable losses of c£70m to stay within FFP? Or am I missing something. 

Which year did the Grealish profit go onto, 22/23? Selling an academy product for 100m must give us some breathing space, Spurs in same position with Kane now.

[CVByrne]

33 minutes ago, Czarnikjak said:

You would also get Digne amortisation off the books, not just his wages. So you saving annually 6.5m + 5m, even if you sell for no profit.

Yes, fair point. If we move Digne on and replace with Acuna we go from 6.5m + 5.5m (25m/4.5) to 4m + 2m potentially. So really we are swapping Digne for Acuna and it costs us half of what Digne cost. Makes sense financially you're right

[omariqy]

30 minutes ago, VillaChris said:

Which year did the Grealish profit go onto, 22/23? Selling an academy product for 100m must give us some breathing space, Spurs in same position with Kane now.

21/22. 

[VillaChris]

6 minutes ago, omariqy said:

21/22. 

0.4m profit? We signed Buendia in early June 2021 IIRC so surely his signing would go in previous year?

[cheltenham_villa]

the few things that are worrying here, we talked flippantly about moving on the likes of Digne and managing our FFP compliance. That still leaves us a long way from being profitable. Im not sure its sustainable for us to be 100m into the pockets of our owners every year. Eventually even billionaires get bored of that.

[CVByrne]

2 minutes ago, cheltenham_villa said:

the few things that are worrying here, we talked flippantly about moving on the likes of Digne and managing our FFP compliance. That still leaves us a long way from being profitable. Im not sure its sustainable for us to be 100m into the pockets of our owners every year. Eventually even billionaires get bored of that.

The new UEFA regulations kind of force us to have only 70% of our total costs to come from playing squad when it's fully phased in. Which will bring is towards being profitable or break even

[Follyfoot]

3 minutes ago, cheltenham_villa said:

the few things that are worrying here, we talked flippantly about moving on the likes of Digne and managing our FFP compliance. That still leaves us a long way from being profitable. Im not sure its sustainable for us to be 100m into the pockets of our owners every year. Eventually even billionaires get bored of that.

I think as long as the club keeps going up in value due to its premiere status and TV money et cetera, I don’t think they have an issue. If they cashed in their chips now, I would like a healthy profit. I suspect there will become a tipping point, but I don’t think that’s anywhere near yet if they cannot get us where they want to get it and the income that would generate in addition to our current financial position.

[AshVilla]

So with possible upcoming sales.

14m - Ramsey.

7m - Philogene and Davis.

18m - Archer.

39m total.

How much FFP headroom does this give?

[Mark Albrighton]

5 minutes ago, AshVilla said:

So with possible upcoming sales.

14m - Ramsey.

7m - Philogene and Davis.

18m - Archer.

39m total.

How much FFP headroom does this give?

You can add a couple of million for Nakamba too.

Edit - probably not actually, probably just broke even on that deal, I guess.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Mark Albrighton

[ender4]

3 minutes ago, AshVilla said:

So with possible upcoming sales.

14m - Ramsey.

7m - Philogene and Davis.

18m - Archer.

39m total.

How much FFP headroom does this give?

Just to use £10m as a round figure for Ramsey.

If you sell an academy player for £10m, it's £10m FFP profit, which is an immediate £40m available transfer fee for buying a player on a 4 year contract.

Then if we buy him back in 1-2 years for say £20m on a 4 year contract, it only costs us £5m a year.

So we benefit when we sell him and benefit when we buy him back. Monchi is a genius!

Edited August 23, 2023 by ender4

[ender4]

4 minutes ago, AshVilla said:

So with possible upcoming sales.

14m - Ramsey.

7m - Philogene and Davis.

18m - Archer.

39m total.

How much FFP headroom does this give?

Call it £35m including Nakamba. I think it's sensible to estimate we wouldn't use all the FFP headroom of x4 (using 4 year contracts) as that would mean we'd have to sell £35m of academy players every year. 

However, we might decide to use x2 this year giving us £70m to spend. 

If we're being prudent, then you'd say only spend £35m and therefore keeping future years calculation smooth. Don't want to do an Everton and run into trouble in 2 years time because we hit the FFP ceiling and have to sell £35m worth of players for the next 3 summers.

[ender4]

This is some player trading this summer and surely leaves us with decent FFP allowance to get in one more big first team player.

 

Players OUT:

Steer - released

Young - released

Nakamba - £2m Luton

Sanson - loan to Nice

Wesley - free to Stoke

A.Ramsey - £14m (+ buyback) Burnley

Archer - £18m (+ buyback) Sheffield

Philogene Bidace - £4m (+ buyback) Hull

Davis - £2m Hull

Digne (maybe) - loan to Nice

 

Players IN:

Tielemans - Free

Diaby - £42m

Torres - £32m

Zaniola - £4m loan, plus option to buy £27m 

Acuna (maybe) - £10m-ish

 

*rough transfer fees of the top of my head, please don't beat me up because i've got them wrong! 

Edited August 23, 2023 by ender4

[CVByrne]

I think the following are in category of 0 to £2m in terms of annual fee amortisation cost

Martinez, Olsen

Cash, Chambers, Konsa, Mings

McGinn, Kamara, Luiz, Tielemans, Ramsey

The following are in the £2m to £4m range

Moreno, Duran, Dendonker, Watkins (if he signs new contract), Acuna (if he signed for 10-12m)

The following are in the £4m to £6m range

Traore, Coutinho, Digne

Finally the £6m to 8m range

Bailey, Carlos, Diaby, Buendia, Pau

We then add on wages to these. 

Top club earners (at a guess) would be. Coutinho, Digne, Martinez, Kamara, Tielemans, Mings, McGinn I'd say they are all on £100k or more

[ender4]

Reading about the Everton breach of FFP, it seems that they couldn't just disregard the stadium costs. The stadium costs counted towards their FFP calculations as did the interest payable on the cash required to build the stadium.  

So if our North stand is going to roughly cost £100m and our annual revenue is £200m, how much does this screw us in terms of what we can spend on players?

Over how many years can we spread the £100m cost as part of the FFP calc?

 

[Czarnikjak]

6 minutes ago, ender4 said:

Reading about the Everton breach of FFP, it seems that they couldn't just disregard the stadium costs. The stadium costs counted towards their FFP calculations as did the interest payable on the cash required to build the stadium.  

So if our North stand is going to roughly cost £100m and our annual revenue is £200m, how much does this screw us in terms of what we can spend on players?

Over how many years can we spread the £100m cost as part of the FFP calc?

 

They could, but only after they received build permit you can start capitalising these costs. Any preliminary work before you get the the neccasary permits was counted towards ffp.

[ender4]

Just now, Czarnikjak said:

They could, but only after they received build permit you can start capitalising these costs. Any preliminary work before you get the the neccasary permits was counted towards ffp.

Ah i see. So all the current work in terms of design and planning does count towards FFP, but the actual £100m cost from when the work actually starts won't count into the FFP calc?

[villa82]

15 minutes ago, ender4 said:

Reading about the Everton breach of FFP, it seems that they couldn't just disregard the stadium costs. The stadium costs counted towards their FFP calculations as did the interest payable on the cash required to build the stadium.  

So if our North stand is going to roughly cost £100m and our annual revenue is £200m, how much does this screw us in terms of what we can spend on players?

Over how many years can we spread the £100m cost as part of the FFP calc?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/nov/16/chelsea-facing-fa-and-premier-league-probe-for-possible-ffp-breaches
 

What are the rules?

The Premier League reviews clubs’ accounts every year and sets a limit on the extent to which they can keep running at a loss. The short version is that clubs must not lose more than £105m over a three-year period. However, some spending does not count towards the calculation. Examples include infrastructure – such as investment in the stadium and training ground – community programmes, women’s football or youth development. These are known as “add backs”.

[Czarnikjak]

19 minutes ago, ender4 said:

Ah i see. So all the current work in terms of design and planning does count towards FFP, but the actual £100m cost from when the work actually starts won't count into the FFP calc?

Essentially yes (although I'm pretty sure once the actual work gets the green light and goes ahead you can recapitalise previous expenses and essentially "claim it back" from profit and loss perspective).

In Everton case costs prior to June 2021 were expensed on the profit&loss account, I think that was the time when they were given the green light to go ahead with the build.

If you're interested in Everton finances this Blog has you covered https://theesk.org/2022/05/30/evertons-financial-position-entering-the-summer/