Jaden Philogene

[Brumstopdogs]

 

[VillaParkAvenue]

He’ll obviously have to really stand out in the Championship to be in consideration, but it seems he does. Not just Hull fans, plenty of neutrals too seem to believe he’s the best player in that league atm.

[MWARLEY2]

15 minutes ago, Zatman said:

in the Championship as well. Am happy for JPB but still massively unproven higher up

He is going to have a Jarod Bowen type season the way he is going.  It is a massive step up but its his unpredicatability which will give him a real chance. He just does things the opposition doesn't expect. 

[DJBOB]

Easiest one to bring back - in a position we're desperately short on (LM) - with a profile that would complement (tricky, ball carrier, 1v1 winner) instead of replace any in our current squad.

I know he wanted playing time but surely he would get playing time next year!

[MWARLEY2]

2 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Easiest one to bring back - in a position we're desperately short on (LM) - with a profile that would complement (tricky, ball carrier, 1v1 winner) instead of replace any in our current squad.

I know he wanted playing time but surely he would get playing time next year!

And also he is a mental presser. 

[useless]

The neutral fans are just hyping him up in the same way most fans on here are, that is doing so based on him getting goals and assists and the highlights of those goals, but without actually watching Hull games to see how he's performing overall, like the other weekend he scored there was a debate on here about bringing him back that wouldn't have happened at that moment if he hadn't have scored that game, and then I looked at opinon of Hull fans and were saying he didn't play that well.

Not saying he isn't doing well overall, but I think we have to not get carried away by goals and assists at Championship level, people did exactly the same last season with Archer, who was getting goals and assists in the Championship, and it was being insisted he should have a chance with us based on those goals, but if you watch him play his overall performances weren't really suggestive of a player ready for the level we're at currently.

And i'm pretty sure if Archer and Aaron Ramsey were playing in the Championship they too would be getting goals and assists like Philogene is doing currently, and in Ramsey's case would definitely be putting in good overall performances as well , not saying Philogene isn't doing that by the way, just that we should guard against getting carried away by goals and assists alone.

I hope we do buy him back but if we do do it will be based more on his overall game combined with his end product.

[useless]

And also I don't think we should just presume Zaniolo would be better for us than long-term just because he's played and scored in the Champions League or whatever, the likes of Grealish, Maddison, Neves, Eze, and so on were playing the Championship when they were Philogene's age. Wesley has played and scored in the Champions League and played for Brazil. Not saying that Zaniolo wouldn't be better option either, just that Philogene currently playing in the Championship isn't proof of the opposite. If we liked both there would be room for both of them anyway.

[DJBOB]

7 minutes ago, useless said:

The neutral fans are just hyping him up in the same way most fans on here are, that is doing so based on him getting goals and assists and the highlights of those goals, but without actually watching Hull games to see how he's performing overall, like the other weekend he scored there was a debate on here about bringing him back that wouldn't have happened at that moment if he hadn't have scored that game, and then I looked at opinon of Hull fans and were saying he didn't play that well.

Not saying he isn't doing well overall, but I think we have to not get carried away by goals and assists at Championship level, people did exactly the same last season with Archer, who was getting goals and assists in the Championship, and it was being insisted he should have a chance with us based on those goals, but if you watch him play his overall performances weren't really suggestive of a player ready for the level we're at currently.

And i'm pretty sure if Archer and Aaron Ramsey were playing in the Championship they too would be getting goals and assists like Philogene is doing currently, and in Ramsey's case would definitely be putting in good overall performances as well , not saying Philogene isn't doing that by the way, just that we should guard against getting carried away by goals and assists alone.

I hope we do buy him back but if we do do it will be based more on his overall game combined with his end product.

Good summary and agreed. 
 
I think the Jaden’s just a bit different than Archer and Ramsey in terms of our overall squad and starting XI. Archer was always going to struggle to get ahead of Ollie and Duran. Ramsey has to displace McGinn, JJ, Diaby in a midfielder 8/10 role. 
 
Whereas Jaden really has only Bailey and JJ to compete with and offers something different. 

[useless]

Yes I think in general Philogene has more of an all round game than Archer, and perhaps and higher ceiling, and for all his flair he's actually surprisingly hard working, the only real complaint I've seen of him from Hull fans is that he sometimes can be a little selfish.

 

[Pongo Waring]

So we can only activate the 15 million buy back clause if Hull City get promoted.

[Delphinho123]

10 hours ago, Keyblade said:

He's made 9 appearances in the "English game". Seems like he's become the Buendia replacement in more ways than one.

Yep, both not good enough. 

[Delphinho123]

10 hours ago, useless said:

The neutral fans are just hyping him up in the same way most fans on here are, that is doing so based on him getting goals and assists and the highlights of those goals, but without actually watching Hull games to see how he's performing overall, like the other weekend he scored there was a debate on here about bringing him back that wouldn't have happened at that moment if he hadn't have scored that game, and then I looked at opinon of Hull fans and were saying he didn't play that well.

Not saying he isn't doing well overall, but I think we have to not get carried away by goals and assists at Championship level, people did exactly the same last season with Archer, who was getting goals and assists in the Championship, and it was being insisted he should have a chance with us based on those goals, but if you watch him play his overall performances weren't really suggestive of a player ready for the level we're at currently.

And i'm pretty sure if Archer and Aaron Ramsey were playing in the Championship they too would be getting goals and assists like Philogene is doing currently, and in Ramsey's case would definitely be putting in good overall performances as well , not saying Philogene isn't doing that by the way, just that we should guard against getting carried away by goals and assists alone.

I hope we do buy him back but if we do do it will be based more on his overall game combined with his end product.

We signed Watkins from the Championship. 

The Championship is a good standard and plenty of players signed from there do well in the PL.

Im a little miffed we sold Philogene. I get it, it was an FFP move, but I do hope that we’re willing to give our better youngsters a go at first team level for a longer period rather than just selling them for FFP purposes. 

I wasn’t actually that fussed about Archer and A. Ramsey, but I felt like Philogene could have really offered something in the Emery system. 

[MaVilla]

5 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

We signed Watkins from the Championship. 

The Championship is a good standard and plenty of players signed from there do well in the PL.

Im a little miffed we sold Philogene. I get it, it was an FFP move, but I do hope that we’re willing to give our better youngsters a go at first team level for a longer period rather than just selling them for FFP purposes. 

I wasn’t actually that fussed about Archer and A. Ramsey, but I felt like Philogene could have really offered something in the Emery system. 

Philogene wanted to leave, where as Archer & Ramsey were straight decisions to sell afaik.

From what i have read, Emery did want to keep Philogene around, but Philogene himself wanted to leave for game time, so we let him go.

[useless]

I didn't say anything about players in the Championship not being good enough, in fact I said the opposite, I said most people raving about Philogene haven't actually watched any Hull games, and are hyping him up just based on seeing that he's scoring and getting assists, goals and assists alone at Championship level isn't good enough alone to get in our team, Hourihane and Adomah were capable of that in the second tier of English football, and it was of a higher standard then.

If Philogene was playing for Sheffield United or Burnley and Archer and Ramsey were playing for Hull, then it would be Archer and Ramsey getting the headlines because they would be doing well at Championship level, and it would be those two that people would be insisting we buy back.

Ramsey has been unlucky with injuries, presuming that's not going to be a long-term thing, he's still the one I'd back to go farthest in the game, out of the three of them, it's easy to forget how good he is just because of difficult start to Burnley career, and that's not meant to be detrimental towards Philogene, as I rate him highly too, I watchd quite a bit of Cardiif last season, and can say from that his overall game was very good, if he's combining that level of performance, or maybe even better, with the goals and assists he's getting, then next season will be playing at an higher level for sure.

[lexicon]

3 hours ago, useless said:

I didn't say anything about players in the Championship not being good enough, in fact I said the opposite, I said most people raving about Philogene haven't actually watched any Hull games, and are hyping him up just based on seeing that he's scoring and getting assists, goals and assists alone at Championship level isn't good enough alone to get in our team, Hourihane and Adomah were capable of that in the second tier of English football, and it was of a higher standard then.

If Philogene was playing for Sheffield United or Burnley and Archer and Ramsey were playing for Hull, then it would be Archer and Ramsey getting the headlines because they would be doing well at Championship level, and it would be those two that people would be insisting we buy back.

Ramsey has been unlucky with injuries, presuming that's not going to be a long-term thing, he's still the one I'd back to go farthest in the game, out of the three of them, it's easy to forget how good he is just because of difficult start to Burnley career, and that's not meant to be detrimental towards Philogene, as I rate him highly too, I watchd quite a bit of Cardiif last season, and can say from that his overall game was very good, if he's combining that level of performance, or maybe even better, with the goals and assists he's getting, then next season will be playing at an higher level for sure.

We've seen first-hand from JPB that he has a good all-round game, the issue was the end-product and that seems to have come now. 

[AlwaysAVFC]

10 hours ago, Pongo Waring said:

So we can only activate the 15 million buy back clause if Hull City get promoted.

Was reading this earlier, seems a strange clause to have in there. The wording I saw was playing in the same division rather than if promoted but effectively the same.

No wonder it took a while to be ironed out. I wonder what details actually are in there. If he is highly sort after and they don't go up, if the buy back can't be triggered and we don't want to pay the going rate, you'd like to think there was a decent percentage of the transfer fee due our way.

In an ideal world, Hull go up and then we give him some time with them in the Premier league to see how he does.

[rodders0223]

If the 10m - 15m buyout clause in the Championship is genuine I don't see us not activitating that even if his numbers tail off slightly.

PL clubs will be sniffing , they always do, there's a ton of England internationals now who made their way in the Championship. 

If we don't sign get in early and agree to sign him in the summer there's a good chance that clause dies with another sale and we've lost a 30m+ player for 5m.

[lexicon]

1 hour ago, rodders0223 said:

If the 10m - 15m buyout clause in the Championship is genuine I don't see us not activitating that even if his numbers tail off slightly.

PL clubs will be sniffing , they always do, there's a ton of England internationals now who made their way in the Championship. 

If we don't sign get in early and agree to sign him in the summer there's a good chance that clause dies with another sale and we've lost a 30m+ player for 5m.

Can't see Monchi allowing that to happen tbf - I imagine we're protected one way or another with some clauses/agreements.

[useless]

There will definitely be a buyback option regardless of which division Hull are in, the Hull chairman hasn't even denied that - it was actually their Vice Chairman who spoke on the issue, he's just stated the price if they're promoted, Emery stated numerous times that it was important for us to have control over his future,  and if the buyback was that restricted we wouldn't have allowed him to leave for as little as £5m, the reason it was that low is because there will be clauses that stack the deal in our favor within reason, also Collomose said recently the buyback is around £10m, which I presume is the fee should Hull not win promotion.

Also Hull want to forge relationship with us to get more top youngsters in the future, again which will have put us in a very good bargaining position, they have said the only way for them to get these kind of players is to agree to buybacks with selling club.

Other clubs coming in for him is probably more of an issue,  he can't be forced to re sign for us if another team comes in for him who he would prefer to sign for, best case scenario in that event is that it's pre-agreed that we buy him back from Hull and then sell him on for a profit, but hopefully if we want him back he's happy to return, in Ramsey's case he's already agreed his deal with us should that happen with him, so I would presume similar was done with Philogene and Archer.

[useless]

He went off injured at the weekend and has been ruled out of Hull's match on Wednesday. He is to have a scan on medial knee ligament damage to determine the full extent of his injury.