Cameron Archer

[lexicon]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

I am not arguing with the complete player reference, because I haven't watched Gyokeres enough, but just on stats alone its worth comparing.

• Gyokeres is 25 and in 110 games for Covenrtry in the Championship he has scored 41 goals.....thats a rate of 2.68
• Archer is 21 and in 42 games in the championship he has scored 18 goals....thats a rate of 2.27

Now, I am not suggesting there is anything conclusive about that other than Cam is a decent finisher....but at 21, He still has much to learn abou becoming a complete Forward.

I think he has the hardest part nailed down....Its the build up and transition work he needs to improve on, but I am sure UE will be aware of that.

At the end of the day, it will be UE's decision and he knows what the timeline, he has to get the work done, he has in mind.

I would like to see Cam, stay with us.....but in UE I Trust.

 

Well that's it, isn't it? Gyokeres is approaching his prime and Archer is still a youngster, so he's had more time to refine his game. The question with Archer is whether he can raise his ceiling to be a more complete player or not, because we don't know. The championship isn't a bad league, but it's not comparable to the premier league and it's the reason whyGyokeres isn't a player I'd have wanted at Villa. I don't think he's quite good enough for the level we're playing at, and that is by far the most key aspect here. Archer not being of the quality we need (at least right now IMO) doesn't mean that he's a bad player or anything like that - we've just got to the point where we have a lot of very talented players and will be playing against equally talented teams in the top half. There are only so many young players we can afford the time to learn and make mistakes, especially if we're serious about silverware - and I'd much rather give time to say, Aaron Ramsey, because I think he's got a much higher ceiling. 

 

[TRO]

On 24/07/2023 at 12:08, MotoMkali said:

I mean we never really created anything for him. It's not like they were too strong or quick for him. He sent lascelles to the floor twice and folded joelinton. Really the only opportunity was when he had a 1 on 1 vs lascelles but got tackled and you can't expect a player to win that every time. 

I think thats right....We faded when he came on, and the intensity we had earlier, subsided.

Cameron will flourish in a quick tempo, high intensity game.....I don't see him standing out/catching the eye, in a slow build up possesion based game, with few chances created.

I don't think he is a player for a containing, chess type game....but I recognise there is a time and place for that.

Edited July 25, 2023 by TRO

[lexicon]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think its a real Dilemma....But I feel uneasy, if he is not given a chance.

just off the cuff....Ollie and JJ have been given "time" to fine tune their game and progress as individuals.....Its kind of ironic that as we are progressing, that "time" is not so easy to acquire.

I might be wrong.....but I just feel, if we let him go, we might regret it.

I don't think keeping him around the first team can hurt, because as far as sheer numbers are concerned, he has proved he can finish.

 

 

I think it could hurt his development because we're not going to be able to give him the chances he'd need IMO.

Also, he's proven that he can finish in the Championship - that's a big difference. The level of football and defending is far higher in the prem. 

[AV82]

I'm hoping he starts tomorrow with Coutinho and Diaby behind him. Then we can see where he's at.

[lexicon]

16 minutes ago, mikeyp102 said:

And therein lies the problem, I just can’t see teams like those mentioned gambling their premier survival on Archer being their main striker. 

Exactly - because he's not shown quite enough yet to be worth the risk. 

[Rightdm00]

I still think he is some ways away from being able to compete consistently in the PL. I think he will absolutely come good but not on a timeline that Unai currently has us on. Because of that I would be okay selling with a decent fee £15 million and hefty sell on clause. Pretty much the deal that man city agreed to with us over Douglas Luiz. 

 

[TRO]

3 hours ago, lexicon said:

I think it could hurt his development because we're not going to be able to give him the chances he'd need IMO.

Also, he's proven that he can finish in the Championship - that's a big difference. The level of football and defending is far higher in the prem. 

but thats where Ollie and Ivan Toney came from....Tammy did much of his good work there too.

Its far from easy, scoring in the Championship....but I accept, its a different level, with defenders far more savvy.

I have seen over the years, in many different era's....Players actually developing in the first team....Gary Shaw, Brian Little and David Platt,.....Andy Gray made the transition from Scottish football at 19, with barn storming results.

The common denominator here is being given a chance to prove yourself in amongst the players you wish to complete your apprenticeship with.

Edited July 25, 2023 by TRO

[Delphinho123]

20 minutes ago, AV82 said:

I'm hoping he starts tomorrow with Coutinho and Diaby behind him. Then we can see where he's at.

If Coutinho gets fit that’s who I want to start the season with!

[duke313]

8 minutes ago, Rightdm00 said:

I still think he is some ways away from being able to compete consistently in the PL. I think he will absolutely come good but not on a timeline that Unai currently has us on. Because of that I would be okay selling with a decent fee £15 million and hefty sell on clause. Pretty much the deal that man city agreed to with us over Douglas Luiz. 

 

I have a feeling that might be what happens with the likes of Archer and maybe Philogene.  

[TRO]

21 minutes ago, lexicon said:

I think it could hurt his development because we're not going to be able to give him the chances he'd need IMO.

Also, he's proven that he can finish in the Championship - that's a big difference. The level of football and defending is far higher in the prem. 

I am not arguing with you.....your points have real merit and they are not lost on me....to some degree, I could argue the same as you, but I am just being devils advocate, to a degree.

I remember when I was as school and I heard that the swimming teacher had a letter from one of the pupils mothers...It Read.

"Samantha, can't go to swimming lessons, until she can swim"

Thats the dilemma, I have.....Cam will not learn the things, he should be better at, until he plays in the first team, and we can be sure one way or the other.....Keinan Davis has had that opportunity, albeit fleeting, why not Cam?

If he does go out on loan....I will back the Managers judgement.

[TRO]

2 hours ago, Rightdm00 said:

I still think he is some ways away from being able to compete consistently in the PL. I think he will absolutely come good but not on a timeline that Unai currently has us on. Because of that I would be okay selling with a decent fee £15 million and hefty sell on clause. Pretty much the deal that man city agreed to with us over Douglas Luiz. 

 

what!

........and Morgan Gibbs-white went for c £40 mill.

Chuck went for more than that.

That is selling ourselves short, alright.

Edited July 25, 2023 by TRO

[Wezbid]

He'll get chances in the cups, Europe and sub Prem appearances. 

No way I'd sell him after 2 successful loans, U-21 success and the striker's market not looking healthy for a replacement. 

[lexicon]

20 minutes ago, TRO said:

I am not arguing with you.....your points have real merit and they are not lost on me....to some degree, I could argue the same as you, but I am just being devils advocate, to a degree.

I remember when I was as school and I heard that the swimming teacher had a letter from one of the pupils mothers...It Read.

"Samantha, can't go to swimming lessons, until she can swim"

Thats the dilemma, I have.....Cam will not learn the things, he should be better at, until he plays in the first team, and we can be sure one way or the other.....Keinan Davis has had that opportunity, albeit fleeting, why not Cam?

If he does go out on loan....I will back the Managers judgement.

It's OK TRO, I'm not seeing this as an argument, just a discussion. 

With KD, when he got a chance, we were in a much worse position than we are now. The stakes are higher now, raised in line with expectations and wants. 

35 minutes ago, TRO said:

but thats where Ollie and Ivan Toney came from....Tammy did much of his good work there too.

Its far from easy, scoring in the Championship....but I accept, its a different level, with defenders far more savvy.

I have seen over the years, in many different era's....Players actually developing in the first team....Gary Shaw, Brian Little and David Platt, Trevor.....Andy Gray made the transition from Scottish football at 19, with barn storming results.

The common denominator here is beeing given a chance to prove yourself in amongst the players you wish to complete your apprenticeship with.

And lots of other players who didn't make it in the top flight. It's better to score in that league than not, obviously, but it's not the same level as the PL and the difference between the two leagues is massive. 

I think Archer would be best off going on loan for a year at the highest possible level we can find that'll take him, so he can focus on working on his overall game. He's 21 - there's still time. It could do him the world of good and I don't think him riding the bench and playing a handful of games would be as valuable. 

[tomsky_11]

He won't be going anywhere until we have solid back up for Watkins. Even then, plenty of additional games potentially for him to get minutes at a higher level, because that's what we need to see from him. Also, more time with Emery should be beneficial. He's barely had any of that so far. And was back later that other this summer. Feel like if he began to operate similar to how Watkins does now, staying central, that would really suit his game. Drifted out of those areas a little too much the other day I thought.

[Dillon66]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I think his goal scoring is nailed down.....he just needs to be more industrious and consistent with his fist touch out side the box.....I think this will come with minutes in the first team.

He just needs to be a bit involved more, looking for those through balls and capitalising on them....and working to get on the end of them.

His shooting on goal is there IMO.

Most definitely.......he's probably the best finisher in the squad despite his relative inexperience. Lets be honest, for all his off the ball effort and link up play, when Ollie goes through one on one with the keeper we're more hopeful than expectant that he's going to score. If Archer gets the same opportunities I'd be much more confident in his ability to provide the right finish - he just needs game time and patience, same as Ramsey did.

[allani]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I think thats right....We faded when he came on, and the intensity we had earlier, subsided.

Cameron will flourish in a quick tempo, high intensity game.....I don't see him standing out/catching the eye, in a slow build up possesion based game, with few chances created.

I don't think he is a player for a containing, chess type game....but I recognise there is a time and place for that.

This is exactly why I think we need another forward / attacking signing.  Now whether that is a Ferran Torres or Felix "style" player is debatable.  But if we bring on Archer and he has Diaby on one side and let's say Torres on the other - they will be the main "target" / "out" ball in a more contained / chess type game.  Once they are on the ball, we are automatically transferring into a quick, high tempo, high intensity attacking stage of play.  It's what they do.  They get the ball and they drive at pace at or behind the opposition back-line.  This automatically plays in Archer's sweet spot as we're then expecting him to make the runs, try and find the space, etc to make a chance for himself or drag defenders away from the space that Diaby / Torres are attacking.  Either way, I think he'll get chances in matches and if he doesn't score goals immediately he'll still be making space and not under too much pressure.

Compare that to playing with say Bailey and Buendia (although interestingly Buendia was immense in the type of role I talk about above in the Newcastle friendly allbeit from slightly deeper) and suddenly we're back to Archer really having to lead the line and getting balls pinged into him slightly deeper to hold up and lay off.  Which aren't his real strengths (yet).  Adding Diaby starts to address that question of balance.  But I still think that Buendia and Ramsey are better at hitting that space from deeper than you'd expect a forward (rather than an attacking midfielder) to and so I think that would make it more difficult for Archer.

One more attacker and I think we're in a really good position to "experiment" with Archer, give him the time needed to grow into PL football, but more importantly play in a formation / style that best suits his strengths - which is ultimately about finding space in and around the box and sticking the ball in the net.

I really don't subscribe to the view that another attacking player will block Archer's path / development.  For me it does the exact opposite.

Edited July 25, 2023 by allani

[maqroll]

Was hoping he'd make a bigger impact when he came on. Hopefully he gets a full 45 minutes at least next time out.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, lexicon said:

It's OK TRO, I'm not seeing this as an argument, just a discussion. 

With KD, when he got a chance, we were in a much worse position than we are now. The stakes are higher now, raised in line with expectations and wants. 

And lots of other players who didn't make it in the top flight. It's better to score in that league than not, obviously, but it's not the same level as the PL and the difference between the two leagues is massive. 

I think Archer would be best off going on loan for a year at the highest possible level we can find that'll take him, so he can focus on working on his overall game. He's 21 - there's still time. It could do him the world of good and I don't think him riding the bench and playing a handful of games would be as valuable. 

I think training along side the first team will have merit too, stuff rubs off.....This is not a loaded question, but what exactly do you think he will learn more, playing in the championship, for example?....He has already proved he can score goals there. He has proved he can score goals at under 21 level.

I accept, as we progress, the opportunities, will get harder, but we have to provide pathways for the academy to work..... We have already spent c18 mill on a young player from the MLS and some fans have us selling Archer for less...Don't get that.

Question.......Are we simply under estimating Cameron Archer?

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by TRO

[TRO]

1 hour ago, allani said:

This is exactly why I think we need another forward / attacking signing.  Now whether that is a Ferran Torres or Felix "style" player is debatable.  But if we bring on Archer and he has Diaby on one side and let's say Torres on the other - they will be the main "target" / "out" ball in a more contained / chess type game.  Once they are on the ball, we are automatically transferring into a quick, high tempo, high intensity attacking stage of play.  It's what they do.  They get the ball and they drive at pace at or behind the opposition back-line.  This automatically plays in Archer's sweet spot as we're then expecting him to make the runs, try and find the space, etc to make a chance for himself or drag defenders away from the space that Diaby / Torres are attacking.  Either way, I think he'll get chances in matches and if he doesn't score goals immediately he'll still be making space and not under too much pressure.

Compare that to playing with say Bailey and Buendia (although interestingly Buendia was immense in the type of role I talk about above in the Newcastle friendly allbeit from slightly deeper) and suddenly we're back to Archer really having to lead the line and getting balls pinged into him slightly deeper to hold up and lay off.  Which aren't his real strengths (yet).  Adding Diaby starts to address that question of balance.  But I still think that Buendia and Ramsey are better at hitting that space from deeper than you'd expect a forward (rather than an attacking midfielder) to and so I think that would make it more difficult for Archer.

One more attacker and I think we're in a really good position to "experiment" with Archer, give him the time needed to grow into PL football, but more importantly play in a formation / style that best suits his strengths - which is ultimately about finding space in and around the box and sticking the ball in the net.

I really don't subscribe to the view that another attacking player will block Archer's path / development.  For me it does the exact opposite.

Could be......

[skarroki]

There's not enough good strikers out there to be selling off one we brought through the academy. 

They're in hot demand currently, it's well worth keeping Archer around. Could save us £40mil if all goes well. 

That step up from Championship to the Prem is a complete unknown most the time. There's players who look ready-made for the Prem who cannot hack it and players that you'd think are struggling at that level that suddenly become Prem regulars. 

Because of that, if we need more numbers in the squad, I would want any academy players reaching the 21-22 age bracket where they need to be registered as one of the 25 to be kept on and hope they'll impress Unai.

I don't know if this is a commonly held sentiment in modern football, but I think acheiving anything good this season will be better if the Ramsey's, Philogene, Archer, Iroegbunam et al had a hand in that success.