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India & Pakistan


sne

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So this long running conflict is escalating again during recent weeks.

2 countries with tons of nuclear arms capacity who are now attacking each other.

Quote

Pakistan says 2 Indian warplanes downed, 2 pilots captured

MUZAFARABAD, Pakistan (AP) — Pakistan’s air force shot down two Indian warplanes after they crossed the boundary between the two nuclear-armed rivals in the disputed territory of Kashmir on Wednesday and captured two Indian pilots, one of whom was injured, a military spokesman said.

The dramatic escalation came hours after Pakistan said mortar shells fired by Indian troops from across the frontier dividing the two sectors of Kashmir killed six civilians and wounded several others.

Pakistan’s army spokesman Maj. Gen. Asif Ghafoor said Pakistani troops on the ground captured the pilots. One of the downed planes crashed in Pakistan’s part of Kashmir while the other went down in Indian-controlled section of the Himalayan region, he said.

The injured pilot was being treated at a military hospital, Ghafoor told a news conference in the garrison town of Rawalpindi. He did not elaborate beyond saying the pilots were being “treated well” and made no mention of them being returned to India.

Ghafoor struck a conciliatory tone. “We have no intention of escalation, but are fully prepared to do so if forced into that paradigm,” he added.

Indian air force spokesman Anupam Banerjee in New Delhi said he had no information on Pakistan’s statement. Earlier, senior Indian police officer Munir Ahmed Khan said an Indian Air Force plane crashed in Indian-controlled sector of Kashmir and that it wasn’t immediately known if there were casualties.

Another police officer, S.P. Pani, said firefighters were at the site in Budgam area in Indian-controlled Kashmir where the Indian warplane crashed. Eyewitnesses said soldiers fired in air to keep residents away from the crash site.

Hours later, Pakistan’s Civil Aviation Authority said it shut Pakistani airspace to all commercial flights on Wednesday, without elaborating or indicating when the flights might resume. It was not clear if the shutdown applied to commercial overflights.

Indian news reports said airports in the Indian portion of Kashmir closed for civilian traffic shortly after the air force jet crashed. The Press Trust of India news agency said these airports were located at Srinagar, Jammu and Leh. Indian authorities declined to comment.

Indian administrator Baseer Khan confirmed that the airport in Srinagar, the main city in Indian-controlled Kashmir, was closed and said it was a “temporary and precautionary measure.” Press Trust of India said two airports in northern Punjab state, which borders Pakistan, were also closed.

Meanwhile, the foreign ministry in Islamabad said the country’s air force was carrying out airstrikes Wednesday from within Pakistani airspace across the disputed Kashmir boundary but that this was not in “retaliation to continued Indian belligerence.”

Ghafoor, the Pakistani military spokesman, said the strikes were aimed at “avoiding human loss and collateral damage.”

According to local Pakistani police official Mohammad Altaf, the six fatalities in the Indian shelling earlier on Wednesday included children. The shells hit the village of Kotli in Pakistan’s section of Kashmir.

Kashmir is split between Pakistan and India and claimed by both in its entirety. Though Pakistani and Indian troops in Kashmir often trade fire, the latest casualties came a day after tensions escalated sharply following a pre-dawn airstrike and incursion by India that New Delhi said targeted a terrorist training camp in northwestern Pakistan. 

In Tuesday’s pre-dawn strike by India, Pakistan had said that Indian warplanes dropped bombs near the Pakistani town of Balakot but there were no casualties.

Residents on both sides of the de-factor frontier, the so called Line of Control, said there were exchanges of fire between the two sides through the night. In Pakistan’s part of Kashmir, hundreds of villagers fled border towns.

The situation was no different in villages along the Line of Control in Indian-controlled Kashmir, where residents were moving to safer places following the intense exchange of fire, which began Tuesday and continued Wednesday. In New Delhi, Indian officials said Wednesday at least five of their soldiers were wounded in firing by Pakistani troops along the volatile frontier.

Lt. Col. Devender Anand, an Indian army spokesman, said Pakistani soldiers targeted dozens of Indian military positions across the Line of Control throughout the night. An Indian military statement said that “out of anger and frustration,” Pakistan “initiated unprovoked ceasefire violation.”

The statement said Indian troops “retaliated for effect” and claimed to have destroyed five Pakistani posts. It accused Pakistani soldiers of firing mortars and missiles “from civilian houses, using villagers as human shields.”

Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan was expected to convene the National Command Authority on Wednesday to discuss Islamabad’s response to the incursions by Indian warplanes.

On Wednesday, Pakistan’s Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi told state-run Pakistan Television he was in touch with his counterparts across the world about the “Indian aggression,” adding that New Delhi had endangered peace in the region by Tuesday’s airstrike on Pakistan.

In New Delhi, India’s External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj said Wednesday her country does not wished to see further escalation of the situation with Pakistan and that it will continue to act with responsibility and restraint.

She said the limited objective of India’s pre-emptive strike inside Pakistan on a terrorist training camp Tuesday was to act decisively against the terrorist infrastructure of Jaish-e-Mohammad group, to pre-empt another terror attack in India.

The latest wave of tensions between Pakistan and India first erupted after Jaish-e-Mohammad claimed responsibility for the Feb. 14 suicide bombing of a convoy of India’s paramilitary forces in the Indian portion of Kashmir that killed 40 Indian troops.

Pakistan has said it was not involved in the attack and was ready to help New Delhi in the investigations.

5

https://apnews.com/75b2e4053b994e159dd5a9af6b77ad72

Since this Pakistan has now closed their air space to all air traffic.

(If there already is a topic on this please feel free to merge or close)

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11 minutes ago, Mozzavfc said:

Can someone who knows more than me explain what is so important about Kashmir?

Are there important natural resources in there or is it just a pride thing?

A very potted history:

When the Brits left India (and Pakistan), we drew some fairly arbitrary lines on maps. It's what we do. We either don't understand or don't much bother with the culture and history of places we just sort of have a dabble.

So we drew some lines across Kashmir and said you chaps can have this bit, you chaps can have that bit.

The locals disagree with the way it's been divvied up. 

(see also, many arab states, many african states)

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2 hours ago, Mozzavfc said:

Can someone who knows more than me explain what is so important about Kashmir?

Are there important natural resources in there or is it just a pride thing?

It's not really about the value of Kashmir if I understand it correctly. It's mostly farm country, which is obviously valuable but it's not like the area has gold lying around or oil pumping out of its arse.

IIRC, Kashmir used to effectively be it's own state (as was the rest of India and Pakistan), but with a very divided population. There's areas of it with massively Muslim populations, and others where Hindus and Buddhists are the slight majority. When British India split into India and Pakistan, Kashmir got caught between either pissing off one part of its population, or pissing off the other by joining Pakistan or India, and didn't want to go entirely independent itself. Ultimately it sided with India (like most of India at the time, it was controlled by a non-Muslim ruler, so not too surprising which way they went, although that was also dodgy which didn't help matters). That basically meant a huge chunk of the area that would be far more in line with Pakistan found itself actually as part of India, as well as significant populations in the areas that weren't majority Muslim,, andsn't happy about it. That lead to various conflicts, and today the area is split in 2 (actually 3 because China claims part of it as well) with no will to resolve it either way.

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11 hours ago, ender4 said:

One day in the future i'd hope that India and Pakistan rejoin as one country in the same way East & West Germany did, and possibly South & North Korea might slowly be edging towards.  

Not a chance in hell. Probably more chance of India breaking up in to more nations if anything. Certain states are worlds apart in how different the people are. 

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9 hours ago, Chindie said:

It's not really about the value of Kashmir if I understand it correctly. It's mostly farm country, which is obviously valuable but it's not like the area has gold lying around or oil pumping out of its arse.

IIRC, Kashmir used to effectively be it's own state (as was the rest of India and Pakistan), but with a very divided population. There's areas of it with massively Muslim populations, and others where Hindus and Buddhists are the slight majority. When British India split into India and Pakistan, Kashmir got caught between either pissing off one part of its population, or pissing off the other by joining Pakistan or India, and didn't want to go entirely independent itself. Ultimately it sided with India (like most of India at the time, it was controlled by a non-Muslim ruler, so not too surprising which way they went, although that was also dodgy which didn't help matters). That basically meant a huge chunk of the area that would be far more in line with Pakistan found itself actually as part of India, as well as significant populations in the areas that weren't majority Muslim,, andsn't happy about it. That lead to various conflicts, and today the area is split in 2 (actually 3 because China claims part of it as well) with no will to resolve it either way.

I think part of the problem was that a fair chunk of that majority Muslim population ( circa 75% )kinda took a view of ambivalence towards Pakistan and felt no affinity towards it   , The defacto leader sorta dithered on the decision and some Pak guerrilla forces tried to make it on his behalf via  force ... Mountbatten was asked to get involved and did on the condition it was ceded to India 

the UN were then bought in to resolve things .. probably tells you why it’s still a cluster **** 

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21 hours ago, ender4 said:

One day in the future i'd hope that India and Pakistan rejoin as one country in the same way East & West Germany did, and possibly South & North Korea might slowly be edging towards.  

You won't find many Indians who would want that (and probably not many Pakistani's either).

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8 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

What do you mean?

At some point in the future India (or China perhaps) are going to run out of or need more food and resources. As in 10, 20 or 50 years from now.

Would not be overly shocked if they started looking at retaking Bangladesh, it's only been like 50 years and it's a fertile piece of land.

They've already bought up half of Africa.

Russia did it to Crimea albeit for slightly different reasons.

Just to be clear I'm not sitting on any top secret mails about Indian attack plans :D 

Edited by sne
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2 minutes ago, sne said:

At some point in the future India (or China perhaps) are going to run out of or need more food and resources. As in 10, 20 or 50 years from now.

Would not be overly shocked if they started looking at retaking Bangladesh, it's only been like 50 years and it's a fertile piece of land.

They've already bought up half of Africa.

Russia did it to Crimea albeit for slightly different reasons.

Just to be clear I'm not sitting on any top secret mails about Indian attack plans :D 

But wouldn’t Bangladesh have ran out of food and resources too? It’s massively over populated and probably one of the poorest places in the world. 

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11 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

But wouldn’t Bangladesh have ran out of food and resources too? It’s massively over populated and probably one of the poorest places in the world. 

That is the more likely scenario.

Especially since the glaciers are melting even faster and and disappearing and more and more of the rivers are being diverted irrigated and converted into electrical dams meaning the water lower down towards the bay of Bengal will eventually trickle to a halt.

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10 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

You won't find many Indians who would want that (and probably not many Pakistani's either).

This. 

Always surprises me how many Indians I know despise Pakistanis. Or to be more precise, how many Sikhs and Hindus despise Muslims. 

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15 minutes ago, Xela said:

This. 

Always surprises me how many Indians I know despise Pakistanis. Or to be more precise, how many Sikhs and Hindus despise Muslims. 

You know you’re  **** when even the Sikhs don’t like you :) 

 

Could be just  one mans opinion but chatting to one of our guides in India he said part of Indias population problem is ( or was) the kind of paranoia that the Muslims were trying to take over so it triggered a breeding surge from the Hindu population  ,I guess a certain amount of salt should be taken with what he said and regardless there are of course some other factors In India’s pop growth

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