Racism Part two

[bobzy]

15 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

Here is the issue, being offensive and being racist are two completely different things. 

For example I think the religious people who really believe abortion is murder are deeply offended and feel passionately about the belief they are on the side of morals and saving lives. So those people are offended. Does that mean we ban abortion and people should stop having abortions because these people disagree with them so strongly? 

No, of course not. People are offended by countless things that are all legal in western society. We need to just accept we live in a diverse society where we just accept people are different and agree to disagree on things. There are going to be plenty of assholes and dickheads everyone has to deal with in life. Like someone refusing to give the priority seat on the bus to an elderly person or pregnant woman is not a crime. 

Racist abuse is a hate crime. Someone being offended is not a crime.

All of this feels like really poor examples of what you're possibly trying to say.  No-one would be offended by someone refusing to give up a priority seat, they'd just think they're a dickhead.  If the individual didn't give up the seat and said "No, **** off you fat female word removed" then there's a whole load of offence.  You're saying the latter should just be dealt with by a shrug and saying "ah well, diverse society and all"?

[CVByrne]

6 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I wasn't talking about crime. I was talking about being a decent person.

Being offended isn't a crime, but generally if someone tells you something is offensive, you have to be a bit of a dick to react by saying "No it's not, don't tell me what to do" etc rather than "Oh sorry, I didn't realise. I won't do that again"

I don't think abortion is an appropriate example

Yes most people who are polite will alter what they say and do to try not offend people they meet and interact with in real life. 

When it comes to online though - for example twitter - it is impossible not to offend people due to the fact there are millions/billions of people. So pro choice comments on twitter would offend and anger pro life people on twitter. 

Or lets say, tweeting "the primary cause obesity in people in the west is due to poor diet and lack of exercise" - that would offend millions surely.

Saying and doing something to offend individual people we meet and offending the those online are very distinct. 

[Stevo985]

24 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

Yes most people who are polite will alter what they say and do to try not offend people they meet and interact with in real life. 

When it comes to online though - for example twitter - it is impossible not to offend people due to the fact there are millions/billions of people. So pro choice comments on twitter would offend and anger pro life people on twitter. 

Or lets say, tweeting "the primary cause obesity in people in the west is due to poor diet and lack of exercise" - that would offend millions surely.

Saying and doing something to offend individual people we meet and offending the those online are very distinct. 

I think you've taken this in a different direction. This isn't really what I was talking about

[CVByrne]

19 minutes ago, bobzy said:

All of this feels like really poor examples of what you're possibly trying to say.  No-one would be offended by someone refusing to give up a priority seat, they'd just think they're a dickhead.  If the individual didn't give up the seat and said "No, **** off you fat female word removed" then there's a whole load of offence.  You're saying the latter should just be dealt with by a shrug and saying "ah well, diverse society and all"?

No, I'm saying offensive things aren't illegal. So dickheads not giving up seats are offensive, but being a dickhead isn't illegal. 

[CVByrne]

1 minute ago, Stevo985 said:

I think you've taken this in a different direction. This isn't really what I was talking about

Yes, sorry I wasn't meaning the discussion you were having. Was more a general point on the difference between being offensive and being racist, one being rude one being a crime. 

[Seat68]

3 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

Yes, sorry I wasn't meaning the discussion you were having. Was more a general point on the difference between being offensive and being racist, one being rude one being a crime. 

Isnt that what James White of Warwickshire was charged with for his Hillsborough shirt?

[CVByrne]

11 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

Isnt that what James White of Warwickshire was charged with for his Hillsborough shirt?

That's covered under laws on harassment it's not a hate crime. Hate crime is only in relation to religion, race, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity.

As in it was a crime, though not a hate crime.

Edited June 20, 2023 by CVByrne

[Seat68]

7 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

That's covered under laws on harassment it's not a hate crime. Hate crime is only in relation to religion, race, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity.

As in it was a crime, though not a hate crime.

It was considered offensive though. thats what he was originally arrested for. 

[CVByrne]

2 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

It was considered offensive though. thats what he was originally arrested for. 

Obviously criminal prosecutions under harassment and hate crimes are high offensive too. That's a given. 

I was talking about offensive things people do/say which aren't criminal and understanding distinction between them. 

[Mic09]

42 minutes ago, lexicon said:

Anywhere. 

There is a Polish TV show, prime time on a main channel (similar to ITV) where famous people would dress up as famous singers and perform songs. Done properly, full training, fun but they actually put the shift in to be like them and talked about how great Stevie Wonder or Tina Turner were and appreciating the artist. 

There were lots of black faces there. Never was an issue. 

I'm not saying it's good or bad - it's just that in some cultures, it isn't a big deal. 

[Trensa]

On 21/06/2023 at 20:15, lexicon said:

Anywhere. 

Nope, there are a lot of cultures and POV around the world.

The woke movement is only a thing in USA and, as I can see, UK.

There are a tons of traditions around the world where people paint their faces, black, yellow, brown or whatever, and any of these people do it cause a racist tradition, It just a tradition and It is completely separate from any mean thing.

Here, in Seville, we have a traditional holy week, where we make a thing called "pasos", we show on the streets our saints, like wooden sculptures of this saints, and the members of this procession who walk along this images are dressed like this:

 

 

So, any f year, we have to read or hear the woke/uncultured people, maninly, from USA, saying that this is a empowerment of KKK and we should change this kind of dress for another one and most "cofradías" are from 200/300 years ago when KKK was not a thing.

The first "three Reyes Magos" are from the end of century XIX and, now, cause a few wokes say that is racism It have to stop.

Yeap.

I am starting to think that the first racist are the woke followers cause they see racism in places where I can even imagine.

[lexicon]

1 hour ago, Trensa said:

Nope, there are a lot of cultures and POV around the world.

The woke movement is only a thing in USA and, as I can see, UK.

There are a tons of traditions around the world where people paint their faces, black, yellow, brown or whatever, and any of these people do it cause a racist tradition, It just a tradition and It is completely separate from any mean thing.

Here, in Seville, we have a traditional holy week, where we make a thing called "pasos", we show on the streets our saints, like wooden sculptures of this saints, and the members of this procession who walk along this images are dressed like this:

 

 

So, any f year, we have to read or hear the woke/uncultured people, maninly, from USA, saying that this is a empowerment of KKK and we should change this kind of dress for another one and most "cofradías" are from 200/300 years ago when KKK was not a thing.

The first "three Reyes Magos" are from the end of century XIX and, now, cause a few wokes say that is racism It have to stop.

Yeap.

I am starting to think that the first racist are the woke followers cause they see racism in places where I can even imagine.

 

It's unfortunate when things get appropriated by racists - this is like the Nazis taking the swastika IMO but you'll just have to take it on the chin because the rest of the world will see the picture you posted and think of the KKK.

Blackface is different, though, because it's not an outfit or symbol - it's crude, ignorant and has very negative connotations. You don't have to blindly defend traditions because they've been there for a long time - things change, life changes, society changes and what is acceptable can change too. The prism that we view the world and history through changes as our sensibilities evolve. 

[HKP90]

I'm assuming this tradition is at least partly a hold-over from Andalucia being historically under Muslim rule? I know that was the case, but not any details. Asking those who do I assume it is a cultural relic? 

[TRO]

29 minutes ago, lexicon said:

 

It's unfortunate when things get appropriated by racists - this is like the Nazis taking the swastika IMO but you'll just have to take it on the chin because the rest of the world will see the picture you posted and think of the KKK.

Blackface is different, though, because it's not an outfit or symbol - it's crude, ignorant and has very negative connotations. You don't have to blindly defend traditions because they've been there for a long time - things change, life changes, society changes and what is acceptable can change too. The prism that we view the world and history through changes as our sensibilities evolve. 

Racism is a very serious issue, but it can equally get damaged by folk taking things out of Context, which can have very debatable relevance and create a divided view....any exaggerations either side is not helpful.

I am totally against any form of racism, but I am equally concerned of the pendulum falling the other way, by my reference above.

I have some black friends who cringe at some of the stuff, purported to be racist, (even Zaha refused to take the knee)......But lets get back to talking about Monchie and his football exploits.

[lexicon]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

Racism is a very serious issue, but it can equally get damaged by folk taking things out of Context, which can have very debatable relevance and create a divided view....any exaggerations either side is not helpful.

I am totally against any form of racism, but I am equally concerned of the pendulum falling the other way, by my reference above.

I have some black friends who cringe at some of the stuff, purported to be racist, (even Zaha refused to take the knee)......But lets get back to talking about Monchie and his football exploits.

I don't think criticism of blackface is bad. 

And what exactly do you mean by 'the pendulum falling the other way'? Is too far away from racism bad? Why is Zaha not taking a knee more significant than the hundreds of black players who did find it important? 

[TRO]

5 minutes ago, lexicon said:

I don't think criticism of blackface is bad. 

And what exactly do you mean by 'the pendulum falling the other way'? Is too far away from racism bad? Why is Zaha not taking a knee more significant than the hundreds of black players who did find it important? 

what do you mean, by I don't think criticism of a black face is bad?

I mean the pendulum falling the other way, when accusations of racism is questionable....PM me if you want a seperate debate.

But I don't want to debate this on a thread that is designed for Monchie and his football.

Edited June 23, 2023 by TRO

[Rolta]

2 hours ago, Trensa said:

Nope, there are a lot of cultures and POV around the world.

The woke movement is only a thing in USA and, as I can see, UK.

There are a tons of traditions around the world where people paint their faces, black, yellow, brown or whatever, and any of these people do it cause a racist tradition, It just a tradition and It is completely separate from any mean thing.

Here, in Seville, we have a traditional holy week, where we make a thing called "pasos", we show on the streets our saints, like wooden sculptures of this saints, and the members of this procession who walk along this images are dressed like this:

 

 

So, any f year, we have to read or hear the woke/uncultured people, maninly, from USA, saying that this is a empowerment of KKK and we should change this kind of dress for another one and most "cofradías" are from 200/300 years ago when KKK was not a thing.

The first "three Reyes Magos" are from the end of century XIX and, now, cause a few wokes say that is racism It have to stop.

Yeap.

I am starting to think that the first racist are the woke followers cause they see racism in places where I can even imagine.

This post is woke. It's the definition of woke.

I think 'the woke movement' is mostly probably in your head. There's no movement. To me it seems as if some people in the media/public can't filter, or find it useful overrepresenting what a minority of people say on Twitter. I'm sure it feels like a 'movement', especially if people keep going on about it around you, in the media or whatever. It's certainly seems easy to wind up the people who fall for the 'fear the woke' narrative. But pigeonholing a billion things as woke or imagining pretend movements is equally cringeworthy.

Yes there are annoying people out there. They always were there. Just now with social media we get to hear everyone's opinions, especially the loudest ones. That goes for the stressed-about-the-woke as much as the people they're upset by. Different people are right at different times as far as I can see. 

But you preaching complexity to the situation in your post is woke. Just in this instance you're on the 'right' side—you just consider yourself to be right. Maybe another day you might be wrong and the person you think is woke is right. Maybe another day neither of you are. I live in Madrid and I appreciate the culture is different here so I agree with you. But in the singing show Tu Cara Me Suena they did give the blacked up lady playing Tina Turner a crazy big nose prosthetic too. But then maybe I shouldn't over represent the decision of about two people to do it as if it has a bigger significance.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Rolta

[lexicon]

36 minutes ago, TRO said:

what do you mean, by I don't think criticism of a black face is bad?

I mean the pendulum falling the other way, when accusations of racism is questionable....PM me if you want a seperate debate.

But I don't want to debate this on a thread that is designed for Monchie and his football.

. (dotted and moved to the off-topic thread - you're right, this isn't the place for it. 

Edited June 23, 2023 by lexicon

[lexicon]

@TRO - this is the place to debate things, I suppose.

Quote

 

what do you mean, by I don't think criticism of a black face is bad?

I mean the pendulum falling the other way, when accusations of racism is questionable....PM me if you want a seperate debate.

But I don't want to debate this on a thread that is designed for Monchie and his football.

 

Criticising blackface, for me, is not an example of things going 'too far in the other direction'. That argument is basically headed in the direction of 'it's PC gone mad', which is something not usually uttered by reasonable people.

IMO accusations of racism should be debated on a case-by-case basis. People shouldn't be afraid of speaking up and if the claims are bogus, then that should be determined. 

It's like the welfare system - while there might be a very small number of bad-faith actors abusing it, it's far better to have it because of the overwhelming good it does overall. 

[mjmooney]

If there's one thing I hate more than racism, it's racism part two.