Racism Part two

[Follyfoot]

On 23/09/2022 at 17:42, mjmooney said:

'n****r in the woodpile'. Very common expression in general English usage (British as well as American) for much of my lifetime. Never considered in any way controversial until relatively recently. The meaning of the idiom is identical to 'fly in the ointment', i.e. the one unexpected problem in an otherwise OK plan. Since we already have the latter phrase, the non-PC one is redundant anyway, so best consigned to history. 

Yes, very common and widely used

[Ingram85]

I knew that word was not to be used even when I was a kid in the 80s/90s. It doesn’t have any other meaning. It can’t be confused with anything else. People know not to use it. 

How can you say/see that phrase and not think somethings up? 

[Mark Albrighton]

I don’t think I’ve ever heard that phrase before. 

One phrase I do remember being used when I were a lad was a “black man’s pinch”. Not AS overtly racist but fairly jarring looking back now. 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Mark Albrighton

[Follyfoot]

11 minutes ago, Ingram85 said:

I knew that word was not to be used even when I was a kid in the 80s/90s. It doesn’t have any other meaning. It can’t be confused with anything else. People know not to use it. 

How can you say/see that phrase and not think somethings up? 

You only have to look in the clip put up there is no reaction at all to the comment with Garth Crooks next to him and that was 1990

[Davkaus]

I think one thing that has changed over the years is the offensiveness of the word on its own.

I'm sure it was accepted in 1990 that directing the word at someone was a slur, insulting, and unacceptable in decent company, but using the word in the context of a saying like that, perhaps less so, to the point that now people won't say it at all even when quoting its use elsewhere. Nothing makes me cringe quite like "the n word", it's so **** childish.

[Follyfoot]

Very much like the expression that was used commonly by older Londoners, “black as Newgates knocker” It really was a different world not so long ago, same as “touch of the tar brush” about him or her. I do not think the majority of people using those terms were being deliberately racist 

[Ingram85]

Different times in terms of what was acceptable of course but the intentions/connotations were 100% racist. 

[tomav84]

  

On 23/09/2022 at 16:22, ender4 said:

I was in a meeting with an older member of staff who happens to be female, white and probably around 60 years old. She had moved dept and just started reporting directly to me. 

We were discussing some reports and she says - "like the N***** in the woods".

Complete shock from me, the first few seconds i was just confused trying to process whether she actually said that. Then i kept my facial expressions to a minimum as i didn't know what to say or do.

The other young (white) girl who was with me in the meeting actually half-fell off her chair in shock!

Thinking about it after the meeting, i don't think she was actually being racist, she must have heard the phrase (i looked it up and it's an american phrase from a long long time ago) and has been repeating that phrase for the past 40-50 years. Bloody hell, i'm surprised someone hasn't punched her or at least told her it's not acceptable.

someone says that in a meeting at my place it would probably be cause for instant dismissal. being old would be no excuse whatsoever

49 minutes ago, Follyfoot said:

Yes, very common and widely used

really? never heard it before in my life. and can't imagine you'd get away with it in many places nowadays, and rightly so

[Follyfoot]

12 minutes ago, Ingram85 said:

Different times in terms of what was acceptable of course but the intentions/connotations were 100% racist. 

In some instances maybe put a lot of the time no. These sayings and phrases had  been used for many decades and were part of the language to a degree and the true offensive meaning not given a second thought. It’s only when these things were broken down and analysed and removed from the widespread vocabulary that majority of people woke up to see them for what they were. To be clear I’m not talking about the N word on its own because clearly that would be extremely racist even back then, I’m talking about the sayings

[Follyfoot]

Just now, tomav84 said:

  

someone says that in a meeting at my place it would probably be cause for instant dismissal. being old would be no excuse whatsoever

really? never heard it before in my life. and can't imagine you'd get away with it in many places nowadays, and rightly so

Do not think anybody is disagreeing, Out of interest how old are you

[tomav84]

Just now, Follyfoot said:

Do not think anybody is disagreeing, Out of interest how old are you

38, so i wouldn't say i'm a spring chicken!

[Follyfoot]

3 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

38, so i wouldn't say i'm a spring chicken!

Most definitely not but the near 20 years I’ve been on this earth longer than you encompasses a hell of a lot of change. Put into context we couldn’t even beat the Blues during most of that period

Edited September 26, 2022 by Follyfoot

[Davkaus]

16 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

  

someone says that in a meeting at my place it would probably be cause for instant dismissal. being old would be no excuse whatsoever

 

Same here, they'd be out the door within the hour. Curious to head what happened next at @ender4's place

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, tomav84 said:

  

someone says that in a meeting at my place it would probably be cause for instant dismissal. being old would be no excuse whatsoever

Yeah I don't care how old you are, part of having a job is knowing what is and isn't acceptable. Whether it was acceptable 30 years ago is irrelevant. If you say the N word at work you should be gone

[blandy]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

If you say the N word at work you should be gone

I don't agree. The phrase used N in a woodpile was not (as written earlier) aimed against anyone in a discriminatory manner - as a put down or insult, it was used as an expression of fly in the ointment. Even if it were used in a worse way, there has to be formal process before someone loses their livelihood and job. Some diversity training, education and such like and a final warning or whatever is a better (IMO) way to deal with that kind of thing, in the first occurrence. Repeat, then yeah, pot them, but people (and their kids/families) being hit with the consequences of instant dismissal for using an unacceptable word seems a but harsh to me. Direct racism against a person is maybe a different matter, mind.

[Stevo985]

2 minutes ago, blandy said:

I don't agree. The phrase used N in a woodpile was not (as written earlier) aimed against anyone in a discriminatory manner - as a put down or insult, it was used as an expression of fly in the ointment. Even if it were used in a worse way, there has to be formal process before someone loses their livelihood and job. Some diversity training, education and such like and a final warning or whatever is a better (IMO) way to deal with that kind of thing, in the first occurrence. Repeat, then yeah, pot them, but people (and their kids/families) being hit with the consequences of instant dismissal for using an unacceptable word seems a but harsh to me. Direct racism against a person is maybe a different matter, mind.

Fair, but minimum it should be some sort of disciplinary action. Doesn't matter if it's not aimed at anyone, you can't say that word at work.

[tonyh29]

ignore me , I'm turning senile and i actually saw it on the previous page !! 

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by tonyh29

[villa4europe]

Slightly disagree but depending on the context and where you work what position you have etc

If you had a senior position and used that phrase in an external meeting with a client I just don't see you keeping your job, not solely because of the use of the N word and the racism but the problem of you then being considered an absolute **** idiot who should know better and can't be trusted 

[tomav84]

15 minutes ago, blandy said:

I don't agree. The phrase used N in a woodpile was not (as written earlier) aimed against anyone in a discriminatory manner - as a put down or insult, it was used as an expression of fly in the ointment. Even if it were used in a worse way, there has to be formal process before someone loses their livelihood and job. Some diversity training, education and such like and a final warning or whatever is a better (IMO) way to deal with that kind of thing, in the first occurrence. Repeat, then yeah, pot them, but people (and their kids/families) being hit with the consequences of instant dismissal for using an unacceptable word seems a but harsh to me. Direct racism against a person is maybe a different matter, mind.

so i work for a big company that prides itself on promoting diversity. use of the worst of the worst of discriminatory words would 100% have anyone out the door. it's a significant violation of the code of conduct.

[Davkaus]

18 minutes ago, blandy said:

 Direct racism against a person is maybe a different matter, mind.

I can see your perspective on the other part of the post - the "maybe" here has thrown me though.