sne Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 (edited) Might as well make him player/manager for the national side because that is what he is. Obviously he wouldn't want that as then then the blame would fall on him and not on the token fall guy "in charge" Surprisingly I read that he stated he wasn't going to retire this time. A first for everything I guess. Edited July 3, 2019 by sne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtsimonw Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 4 Copa Americas between 2015 and 2020. If he doesn't win it next year, his International career is more than a failure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 (edited) I think the Argentina management need to be brave and say to Messi it has been 10-12 years and just hasnt worked out. Spain did it with Raul and went on to be most successful national team ever. Sweden a much better team without Zlatan another example, England too since egos like Gerrard are gone Edited July 3, 2019 by Zatman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Sweden is a much better team without Erik Hamrén is the correct answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 The thing is with Argentina is that with icardi, aguero, dybala and Martinez coming through in theory they don't need his goals In terms of squad weaknesses it's not messi's role that's their problem, he's probably the easiest to replace If I could be bothered I would try and do some sort of goals per game comparison, I would guess all of their world class strikers have a huge dip when they put on the argue shirt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Messi just no where near as a great as Maradona, cannot drag ordinary teams to success like Maradona did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Looking back I reckon 06 was the best Argie team Messi played in and if he'd been picked more would have been his best chance of winning the World Cup. I know technically 14 they got to the final but they were largely shit and he dragged them further than they had any right to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 17 hours ago, sharkyvilla said: Looking back I reckon 06 was the best Argie team Messi played in and if he'd been picked more would have been his best chance of winning the World Cup. I know technically 14 they got to the final but they were largely shit and he dragged them further than they had any right to go. He dragged them out of the group but failed to have as much of an impact in the knockout rounds. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaglint Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said: Messi just no where near as a great as Maradona, cannot drag ordinary teams to success like Maradona did. That's an interesting one. I guess to start with they are obviously very different players while Messi drops back and does the No.10 role that Maradona did. Maradona isnt the striker that Messi is. Messi is an astonishingly good finisher and that isnt something that was ever a part of Maradona's armoury. I get the point your making. Maradona did have an insane ability to drag teams but sheer force of brilliance. It's a bit difficult in my mind at least to compare apples with apples on this one. Edited July 4, 2019 by villaglint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 14 minutes ago, villaglint said: That's an interesting one. I guess to start with they are obviously very different players while Messi drops back and does the No.10 role that Maradona did. Maradona isnt the striker that Messi is. Messi is an astonishingly good finisher and that isnt something that was ever a part of Maradona's armoury. I get the point your making. Maradona did have an insane ability to drag teams but sheer force of brilliance. It's a bit difficult in my mind at least to compare apples with apples on this one. You're right about their differences, Messi a much much better finisher, but Maradona's passing and vision was far superior and yes they had somewhat different styles/ roles. But it's about the two at their peak being able to drag teams to success, something Messi is lauded for at Barca, and let's be honest, he can still affect the game all over the pitch, but cannot do this when surrounded by mediocrity whereas Maradona could. More broadly, you have lots of people calling Messi the greatest player of all time and that's where the comparison is more apples with apples, Maradona just was a force of nature that hasn't been seen since. The closest I've seen in that respect is Ronaldo (Brazilian) between 95-98. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 Maradona was a leader though, that can make players better. Ronaldo i would say is a leader too. Portugal is an average bunch of players that punch above weight 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtsimonw Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 7 minutes ago, Zatman said: Maradona was a leader though, that can make players better. Ronaldo i would say is a leader too. Portugal is an average bunch of players that punch above weight Absolutely, he drags his teams through. 18/19 Nations League Portugal score 9 goals Ronaldo scores 6 goals (hat trick in the SF) World Cup 2018 Portugal score 6 goals Ronaldo scores 4 goals (Hat trick v Spain) Euro 2016 Portugal score 9 goals Ronaldo scores 3 goals (winner in the SF) Ronaldo with 3 assists That's 24 goals in the last 3 tournaments, he's scored 13 and created another 3. Although he gets knocked for being injured for most of the final, Portugal absolutely finish bottom of the group without him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 12 minutes ago, Zatman said: Maradona was a leader though, that can make players better. Ronaldo i would say is a leader too. Portugal is an average bunch of players that punch above weight I'd say Ronaldo is such a good player that Portugal do everything for him, how he wants. With Argentina, they rip themselves apart internally, and as we saw in the Final in 14, players like Higuain can't finish incredibly easy chances - that's the difference. There are players in Argentina that probably see themselves as the star, it's obvious for Portugal that, that isn't a problem. With the players Argentina have had over the last 10 years, if you put in a half decent manager, took out the politics and told everyone Messi is the focal point and play to how he wants to play, I'd have bet on them winning something - but it hasn't transpired that way, so we haven't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaglint Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Dr_Pangloss said: You're right about their differences, Messi a much much better finisher, but Maradona's passing and vision was far superior and yes they had somewhat different styles/ roles. But it's about the two at their peak being able to drag teams to success, something Messi is lauded for at Barca, and let's be honest, he can still affect the game all over the pitch, but cannot do this when surrounded by mediocrity whereas Maradona could. More broadly, you have lots of people calling Messi the greatest player of all time and that's where the comparison is more apples with apples, Maradona just was a force of nature that hasn't been seen since. The closest I've seen in that respect is Ronaldo (Brazilian) between 95-98. I’d agree that Maradona and Ronaldo were a force of nature at their peak. I think I’d want to argue that peak Messi was also a force of nature though. He just happened to be surrounded by fantastic players at the time. It’s easy to forget how good he was back then and really different to the Giggs twighlight Years Messi we see now who still scores 40+ a season! Hes never been able to drag Argentina along though for sure but I’d argue the fact he’s been so good for so long. Far longer than Maradona and ronaldo is why he deserves to be talked about in the Greatest conversations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, kurtsimonw said: Absolutely, he drags his teams through. 18/19 Nations League Portugal score 9 goals Ronaldo scores 6 goals (hat trick in the SF) World Cup 2018 Portugal score 6 goals Ronaldo scores 4 goals (Hat trick v Spain) Euro 2016 Portugal score 9 goals Ronaldo scores 3 goals (winner in the SF) Ronaldo with 3 assists That's 24 goals in the last 3 tournaments, he's scored 13 and created another 3. Although he gets knocked for being injured for most of the final, Portugal absolutely finish bottom of the group without him. Zat said Ronaldo IS a leader? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtsimonw Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, lapal_fan said: Zat said Ronaldo IS a leader? Probably why I started it "absolutely..." I agreed with him, I was just personally interested in what he has actually done lately for his country. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 It took Ronaldo a bit of time to truly become a great international striker. 158 caps - lets break it down First half of international career 79 apps - 25 goals Second half of international career 79 apps - 63 goals (58 apps - 49 goals in 'competitive' games) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 24 minutes ago, Xela said: It took Ronaldo a bit of time to truly become a great international striker. 158 caps - lets break it down First half of international career 79 apps - 25 goals Second half of international career 79 apps - 63 goals (58 apps - 49 goals in 'competitive' games) He was a winger 1st part of his career. Portugalhad Deco, Figo, Rui Costa. His goal record 1st 3 premier league seasons were average as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 12 hours ago, Zatman said: Maradona was a leader though, that can make players better. Ronaldo i would say is a leader too. Portugal is an average bunch of players that punch above weight This why Ronaldo is edging the argument at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 14 hours ago, Xela said: It took Ronaldo a bit of time to truly become a great international striker. 158 caps - lets break it down First half of international career 79 apps - 25 goals Second half of international career 79 apps - 63 goals (58 apps - 49 goals in 'competitive' games) see I think that argument goes further, this greatest player to play in the PL stuff, Ronaldo will be in the question because of his medals and Ballon D'or but for me the reality is he stepped up another 2 or 3 gears at madrid, he was a great player at utd but he was an absolute world beater at madrid and its not a case of the PL being a better league, I would lazily guess his CL ratios do something similar too zatman is right that he found himself a bit more, nailed his role in the team and as he got older managed to push some of the older heads out the way but he still exploded at madrid, slightly reduced his showboating (slightly) became more athletic, definitely more driven by the competition vs messi and maybe the belief that madrid were a better team and could win more (added maturity and experience too) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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