Dr_Pangloss Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 1 minute ago, villa4europe said: Passing ability? Nope neither of them come close Maradona was a better passer. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 17 minutes ago, Xela said: Shows what an amazing achievement Gerd Muller's stats were. Said before do you put him in the conversation as one of the best ever if we're just talking goal stats and most people said no I'll be honest and say I haven't seen much of him but he looked like a hard little bastard who put himself in the right place and the right time and then threw himself at the ball without an ounce of fear, type of player who touched the ball 4 times a game, 3 goals 1 kick off 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat Kendrick's Dentist Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 4 hours ago, Zatman said: Maradona dragged Napoli to 2 Serie A titles when probably toughest league ever Would be like Messi carrying Bournemouth to the title Nonsense. Napoli were the Chelsea/Man City moneybags of that era. I don't remember Bournemouth breaking the world record transfer fee too many times. That's exactly what Napoli did when they bought Maradona. Brazilian stars Careca and Alemao weren't cheap either. Besides that, they were known for their defensive strength with established Italy internationals all over the team. Each Serie A title was largely down to defence, particularly in 86/87 when they only conceded 21 goals. Of course Maradona played a big part too, scoring 10 and 16 goals in these campaigns. I would also strongly argue against it being the toughest league ever. In the 80s, 99% of the players in Serie A were Italian. It was a long way from the glory days of the mid-to-late 90s where the majority of top players from around the globe congregated in Italy. In Maradona's time, the top Serie A sides had 1/2 top foreigners, and the remainder of the squads were homegrown. Of course, it was a physical league if that's what you mean by tough. Finally, (and I don't mean to bash Maradona, but Messi gets held to impossible standards, so why not?) Maradona only ever managed a cup in Spain, never produced anything in the European Cup with any club (biggest/most important club competition), and, oh yeah, is a drugs cheat after doping with ephedrine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 7 minutes ago, Mat Kendrick's Dentist said: I would also strongly argue against it being the toughest league ever. In the 80s, 99% of the players in Serie A were Italian. It was a long way from the glory days of the mid-to-late 90s where the majority of top players from around the globe congregated in Italy. In Maradona's time, the top Serie A sides had 1/2 top foreigners, and the remainder of the squads were homegrown. Of course, it was a physical league if that's what you mean by tough. This is the top scorer chart from Napoli last title victory. A lot of the best players in the world at the time on that list Rank Player Club Goals 1 Marco van Basten Milan 19 2 Roberto Baggio Fiorentina 17 3 Diego Maradona Napoli 16 4 Salvatore Schillaci Juventus 15 5 Rudi Völler Roma 14 6 Massimo Agostini Cesena 13 Gustavo Dezotti Cremonese Jürgen Klinsmann Internazionale 9 Abel Balbo Udinese 11 Roberto Mancini Sampdoria Lothar Matthäus Internazionale 12 Stefano Desideri Roma 10 Gianluca Vialli Sampdoria Careca Napoli Daniele Massaro Milan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat Kendrick's Dentist Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 4 minutes ago, Zatman said: This is the top scorer chart from Napoli last title victory. A lot of the best players in the world at the time on that list Rank Player Club Goals 1 Marco van Basten Milan 19 2 Roberto Baggio Fiorentina 17 3 Diego Maradona Napoli 16 4 Salvatore Schillaci Juventus 15 5 Rudi Völler Roma 14 6 Massimo Agostini Cesena 13 Gustavo Dezotti Cremonese Jürgen Klinsmann Internazionale 9 Abel Balbo Udinese 11 Roberto Mancini Sampdoria Lothar Matthäus Internazionale 12 Stefano Desideri Roma 10 Gianluca Vialli Sampdoria Careca Napoli Daniele Massaro Milan Yup, most teams had a star midfielder/striker, but they were all still primarily Italian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 Napoli were ordinary until Maradona joined, it was a matter of fact that he dragged them to league success, players like Careca and Alemao came in later on down the line after Maradona already established them a title winning side and then contenders. Maradona's ban for PEDs was in USA 94 when he was old and over the hill, by no means diminishes his achievements and standing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 1 hour ago, Mat Kendrick's Dentist said: Nonsense. Napoli were the Chelsea/Man City moneybags of that era. I don't remember Bournemouth breaking the world record transfer fee too many times. That's exactly what Napoli did when they bought Maradona. Brazilian stars Careca and Alemao weren't cheap either. Besides that, they were known for their defensive strength with established Italy internationals all over the team. Each Serie A title was largely down to defence, particularly in 86/87 when they only conceded 21 goals. Of course Maradona played a big part too, scoring 10 and 16 goals in these campaigns. I would also strongly argue against it being the toughest league ever. In the 80s, 99% of the players in Serie A were Italian. It was a long way from the glory days of the mid-to-late 90s where the majority of top players from around the globe congregated in Italy. In Maradona's time, the top Serie A sides had 1/2 top foreigners, and the remainder of the squads were homegrown. Of course, it was a physical league if that's what you mean by tough. Finally, (and I don't mean to bash Maradona, but Messi gets held to impossible standards, so why not?) Maradona only ever managed a cup in Spain, never produced anything in the European Cup with any club (biggest/most important club competition), and, oh yeah, is a drugs cheat after doping with ephedrine. A little contradicting? For me, Maradona is the best I've ever seen. We've mentioned '86 and '90, but he was very good in '82's world cup too where he was constantly kicked down by the opponents in a way that today would leave the other teams without any players left on the field. But Messi is decent too. So is Ronaldo. And Zidane. And Pélé. And Müller. Etc. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat Kendrick's Dentist Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 8 minutes ago, Pelle said: A little contradicting? For me, Maradona is the best I've ever seen. We've mentioned '86 and '90, but he was very good in '82's world cup too where he was constantly kicked down by the opponents in a way that today would leave the other teams without any players left on the field. But Messi is decent too. So is Ronaldo. And Zidane. And Pélé. And Müller. Etc. Which part is contradictory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, Mat Kendrick's Dentist said: Which part is contradictory? Bah, I tried to enlarge the letters, but clearly failed. But this: 8 minutes ago, Pelle said: Brazilian stars Careca and Alemao 9 minutes ago, Pelle said: In Maradona's time, the top Serie A sides had 1/2 top foreigners, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat Kendrick's Dentist Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 4 minutes ago, Pelle said: Bah, I tried to enlarge the letters, but clearly failed. But this: Haha ok, but that proves my point. Napoli were rich and could afford three South American stars. Take 86/87 when Napoli won their 1st title. Juve had 2 foreign players (Platini and Laudrup), Inter had 2 (Rumenigge and Passarella), Milan had 2 (Wilkins and Hateley), Roma had 2 (Boniek and Berggreen), and the others had 1 or none. Back OT, Messi is the GOAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, Mat Kendrick's Dentist said: Haha ok, but that proves my point. Napoli were rich and could afford three South American stars. Take 86/87 when Napoli won their 1st title. Juve had 2 foreign players (Platini and Laudrup), Inter had 2 (Rumenigge and Passarella), Milan had 2 (Wilkins and Hateley), Roma had 2 (Boniek and Berggreen), and the others had 1 or none. Back OT, Messi is the GOAT. Don't know if Alemao and Careca were that expensive, but Maradona was, as you said, a record breaker. Anyway, looking at that list I have to say that Milan had the worst. Wilkins was decent, Hateley, from what I remember, rather average. Boniek, Platini, Laudrup, Rummenigge, Passarella, were quite good. Wrong. I'm the GOAT. I smell like shite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post sharkyvilla Posted May 9, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 9, 2019 Pretty simply if Messi had declared for Spain then the international argument would be moot, and he wouldn't have to be any better or worse a player. That's what so daft about that argument. Maradona never had Maradona as his manager either. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said: Pretty simply if Messi had declared for Spain then the international argument would be moot, and he wouldn't have to be any better or worse a player. That's what so daft about that argument. Maradona never had Maradona as his manager either. The international argument isn't the be all, end all, but Maradona didn't exactly have a Spain anno 2010 in the world cups. Argentina in '86 had a rather average team. There was Valdano, maybe Burruchaga, but the rest weren't world beaters. So to say that if Messi had played for SPain, etc, is quite flawed. Maradona didn't need that. Nor did Ronaldo in the EC. Portugal aren't that great either. Edited May 9, 2019 by Pelle 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 argentina's problems are much much deeper than the talent of the squad though, its not about the players, they're an absolute shambles 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted May 9, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted May 9, 2019 39 minutes ago, Pelle said: The international argument isn't the be all, end all, but Maradona didn't exactly have a Spain anno 2010 in the world cups. Argentina in '86 had a rather average team. There was Valdano, maybe Burruchaga, but the rest weren't world beaters. So to say that if Messi had played for SPain, etc, is quite flawed. Maradona didn't need that. Nor did Ronaldo in the EC. Portugal aren't that great either. Yeah but the whole argument that an international trophy makes you a better player makes no sense. If a player twice as good as Messi emerged but he was from, I dunno, Lichtenstein then in some people’s eyes he’d never be one of the greats because he’d never win an international trophy. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 48 minutes ago, Pelle said: The international argument isn't the be all, end all, but Maradona didn't exactly have a Spain anno 2010 in the world cups. Argentina in '86 had a rather average team. There was Valdano, maybe Burruchaga, but the rest weren't world beaters. So to say that if Messi had played for SPain, etc, is quite flawed. Maradona didn't need that. Nor did Ronaldo in the EC. Portugal aren't that great either. Agreed, the fact that Maradona dragged an average Argentina side to glory goes massively in his favour, Messi has been in arguably better Argentina sides and has failed to show the same amount of quality and leadership on the greatest stage of them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted May 9, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted May 9, 2019 If the question was “who is a better captain?” Then I’d agree the answer is Ronaldo. But who is the better player? It’s Messi. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat Kendrick's Dentist Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 Why does Messi have to win the greatest international competition, but it's fine that Maradona barely won a match in the greatest club competition? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Mat Kendrick's Dentist said: Why does Messi have to win the greatest international competition, but it's fine that Maradona barely won a match in the greatest club competition? It only works one way don't you know. You concentrate on the few ways Maradona or whoever has a better record but ignore the many more ways Messi has achieved more. Fact is he scores more goals than the greatest goalscorers of all time whilst being as creative as any attacking midfielder there's ever been. Nobody has ever been as good as him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, Mat Kendrick's Dentist said: Why does Messi have to win the greatest international competition, but it's fine that Maradona barely won a match in the greatest club competition? Back then u had to win the league to play in the European Cup and the format was completely different. Now you are guarantied 6 games for just stumbling in at 4th in the domestic league. Over all there are much more games in a season compared to in Maradona's days. Utterly pointless to compare players from different eras anyway, and so much about football has changed since the 80's. Maradona, Messi, Ronaldo... All amazing players. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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