Dean Smith

[TRO]

2 hours ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

I can understand he didn't want to make even more changes having been forced to leave out Heaton, Grealish and Engels. But I still think he needs to rotate more, it's not just about the stats how much the players run, it's also the mental tiredness of playing too much. Away to Wolves in cold dark November would be a perfect game for a seasoned Irishman like Hourihane. Both McGinn and Nakamba has showed signs of tiredness and dipping performances of late, I think he must play the likes of Hourihane and Lansbury on theese occations.

I also think it was a mistake to play Guilbert instead of Elmohamady. We already had a new player in Konza in defence and had to change keeper, we would have needed some more stability and the experience of Elmohamady, Guilbert was woeful in the first half.

It's also a bit too adventurous with the 4-3-3 away, as I said before the game I think we should ahve played with two holding midfielders.

We haven't got the personnel to control things to play 4-3-3....We will get undone.

[Keener window-cleaner]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

We haven't got the personnel to control things to play 4-3-3....We will get undone.

Yes at least against the top half teams, and especially without Jack

[Dave-R]

I still think a 4-3-2-1 is still the way to go, play the LF and RF slightly behind and at the side of Wesley, they can always drift out wide if need be and create for advancing midfielders to exploit. This formation for me is more defensive. It allows you to advance with possession more safely with support from the LB and RB to push it out to them on wing if needed, with which they pass back into midfield. You create the gaps exploit and move in, stretching the opposition making them run more either out to wings or back to there position. It's the problem really that were being controlled, we need to do the controlling and make them tired. Hoofball only ends in loss of possession and we have to chase again which tires our lads out, I think a 4-3-2-1 would stop that.

I would honestly have a second plan during a game, if we're controlling the game on a 4-3-2-1, maybe then switch it up to a 4-2-3-1 to throw an extra man forward. Those two formations are similar yet one used as defence and controlling the other still used as controlling but you gain more attack.

The difference is with those formations and what were playing is that we could still utilise wingers but alot of there game would be helping midfield out more and only to push out to wing if we need to create space. It all means we havnt got wingers out on the wing constantly drying up of energy and a midfield that isnt left huffing and puffing after 70+ mins.

I don't like the winger business, it's leaving our midfield and team messed up, something needs to change to conserve our energy so that if we do go a goal down, we still have reserves of stamina to fight on in the second half.

Smith should change the formation, I don't think it would be swallowing pride, but in the championship he had the exact players he needed to do it with the right quality. It's now different for the Premier, this 4-3-3 needs next level quality to make happen because it's such a step up it's difficult to make work without world class talent.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Dave-R

[TRO]

11 hours ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

Yes at least against the top half teams, and especially without Jack

Its not quite so bad at Home.....but away is suicide.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Dave-R said:

I still think a 4-3-2-1 is still the way to go, play the LF and RF slightly behind and at the side of Wesley, they can always drift out wide if need be and create for advancing midfielders to exploit. This formation for me is more defensive. It allows you to advance with possession more safely with support from the LB and RB to push it out to them on wing if needed, with which they pass back into midfield. You create the gaps exploit and move in, stretching the opposition making them run more either out to wings or back to there position. It's the problem really that were being controlled, we need to do the controlling and make them tired. Hoofball only ends in loss of possession and we have to chase again which tires our lads out, I think a 4-3-2-1 would stop that.

I would honestly have a second plan during a game, if we're controlling the game on a 4-3-2-1, maybe then switch it up to a 4-2-3-1 to throw an extra man forward. Those two formations are similar yet one used as defence and controlling the other still used as controlling but you gain more attack.

The difference is with those formations and what were playing is that we could still utilise wingers but alot of there game would be helping midfield out more and only to push out to wing if we need to create space. It all means we havnt got wingers out on the wing constantly drying up of energy and a midfield that isnt left huffing and puffing after 70+ mins.

I don't like the winger business, it's leaving our midfield and team messed up, something needs to change to conserve our energy so that if we do go a goal down, we still have reserves of stamina to fight on in the second half.

Smith should change the formation, I don't think it would be swallowing pride, but in the championship he had the exact players he needed to do it with the right quality. It's now different for the Premier, this 4-3-3 needs next level quality to make happen because it's such a step up it's difficult to make work without world class talent.

absolutely on the money.

[TRO]

On 11/11/2019 at 08:58, TRO said:

Are you having a laugh?

Have you seen Leicester and Sheff Utd?.......They could sell their energy and still have enough......they are " at it" from the first whistle to the last.....That's just a cop out, what you are suggesting, "the game has changed", of course it has....but they were playing in their own era not now, its all relative.

Vardy don't stop....Harvey Barnes runs for fun....they all do.

I don't think John was a good example yesterday.......and John has probably not got a duracell as he runs out of juice c 75 minutes.....I love him, but its a fact.

not sure, but I think we won possession yesterday?

 

[TRO]

On 11/11/2019 at 08:58, TRO said:

Are you having a laugh.

Have you seen Leicester and Sheff Utd?.......They could sell their energy and still have enough......they are " at it" from the first whistle to the last.....That's just a cop out, what you are suggesting, "the game has changed", of course it has....but they were playing in their own era not now, its all relative.

Vardy don't stop....Harvey Barnes runs for fun....they all do.

I don't think John was a good example yesterday.......and John has probably not got a duracell as he runs out of juice c 75 minutes.....I love him, but its a fact.

not sure, but I think we won the possession stats yesterday?

 

[TRO]

I like Dean Smith....but I think he has a lot to do and a lot to think about.....particularly, with his next batch of recruits.

Coming from where we were 12 months ago it's a reasonable argument, there has been significant improvement, but that claim, won’t keep us in this division alone…its very noble to be reasonable, but sometimes you need more of a ruthless approach. I could make observations of many things we could do better….but one underlying issue really concerns me.

This is where my main concern is with our current set -up….and for that matter, it was in the championship too.

I am not sure we have the right mantra or platform for staying in this league. I look at teams like Bournemouth-Burnley-Brighton-Sheff Utd all have added a hard nosed edge to their game and become difficult to beat….They all came up playing attractive football, realised that was not enough to stay in the Premier League.

I do see good things in our play, we have passages of play that are encouraging and individual moments of glory….but no sustained control or dominance.

I would like to see a far greater degree of commitment to aggression from our players and front foot will to stop them and impose ourselves….we are too passive and reactive and smack of indecision and hesitancy too often in games.

I look at how many players we have bought in the last umpteen years only to see a list of hit and miss signings…..I believe in the main its because the club Mantra does not lend itself to a sufficient level of aggression in its approach, too many players go by the wayside.

Other clubs have made good use of some of our misses like Albrighton, Ayew, Enda Stevens, Traore ,Westwood & Lowton etc…..The platforms they have gone in to was more stable and robust, more diligent and combative….

We are not a bad team, but this lack of aggression has been with us for some time….sure Mings has helped and SJM, but the spirit is eager but soft and not hard nosed enough. I Think it helps new recruits make a mark better too, coming it to a side hell bent on winning possession and competing for every ball on the floor or in the air…..its contagious.

Dean has done a good job, but this kind of thing was at Brentford too….Great on the eye, but soft underbelly to concede when the opposition is more aggressive or more committed to stopping us.

We didn’t win the league for a reason….and I think I am touching on it….for me its still there. When players duck in a wall, it tells me its still there….look one incident is not influencing me, or a couple or defeats…I have seen it for the last 4 managers or more…..Our drive and aggression comes from one or two players, has done for years…..We need much more to be "at it"….we need to hunt players down as a group, and win back possession, not individuals floundering….. not wait around for a champagne ball, creating massive gaps for our opponents to play in and conceding possession so easily.

Sure we have moments where the passage of play is great and score good goals and win the odd game….but our benevolence IMO comes from our inability to be committed to the necessary levels of aggression to seize the initiative.

In tough times in a game….We chase, we stretch and we retreat….we throw bodies in, we sometimes close down in the last third….that’s in the main the back four….the other 6 rarely do , or not often enough…..or not in the last 20 minutes of a game.

We don’t win headers anywhere, we yield in the main to those with a bigger appetite for physicality, even at throw- ins we concede ground…to a more committed opponent who steals territory too often…..In short, we wear ourselves out, by our reactive as opposed to Pro active approach.

In my humble opinion…..and inconclusion….as a team we don’t go after the opposition with nearly enough intent or aggression to secure more points than we have.

I really do hope in fullness of time ,I can honestly say we have fixed this.

Edited November 13, 2019 by TRO

[Sam-AVFC]

18 minutes ago, TRO said:

I look at teams like Bournemouth-Burnley-Brighton-Sheff Utd all have added a hard nosed edge to their game and become difficult to beat….They all came up playing attractive football, realised that was not enough to stay in the Premier League.

Interestingly I know a Brighton fan who has complained that this season they keep dropping stupid points and haven't been solid. He still says he much prefers it to when they were more cautious.

Pretty sure Burnley came up playing 'pragmatic' football and have simply remained that way.

Not sure I'd agree Bournemouth have ever had a hard nosed edge.

Sheffield United are the only one I agree with as they have managed to tighten up their style of football without it becoming ultra defensive, but let's not forget they also had the joint best defensive record in the championship last year with Boro.

Completely agree that we need to tighten up, but I don't agree with your examples and wonder if its a grass is greener case.

[AntrimBlack]

What is costing us points is falling back when we take the lead to protect that lead, in stead of keeping the pressure on.

And the amount of stray passes every game is insane.

I also think we should leave a player on the halfway line for the opposition corners. Any corners that get cleared invariably come right back at us.

[TRO]

15 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

Interestingly I know a Brighton fan who has complained that this season they keep dropping stupid points and haven't been solid. He still says he much prefers it to when they were more cautious.

Pretty sure Burnley came up playing 'pragmatic' football and have simply remained that way.

Not sure I'd agree Bournemouth have ever had a hard nosed edge.

Sheffield United are the only one I agree with as they have managed to tighten up their style of football without it becoming ultra defensive, but let's not forget they also had the joint best defensive record in the championship last year with Boro.

Completely agree that we need to tighten up, but I don't agree with your examples and wonder if its a grass is greener case.

Its not a grass is greener case ....its just that i Disagree with you on this point.

Bourenemouth out fought us for the first 10 minutes and their forthright play unsettled us and we made errors....they forced us to make those errors.

We fought our way back in, but they stood firm and seen the game out....they were away from home after all.

No....I am quite comfortable with my appraisal of them.....Since they came up, I think Brighton have been robust in the main too.

Its all very fine to watch attractive football, I agree, no one wants to give that up, but unfortunately unless you have world class players, its hard to then stop the opposition.....Its getting the balance thats tricky.

but Points is the holy grail and sometimes you have to sacrifice something to stay in the division when you are new comers, only to revisit the eye candy, when the quality of individual player has had time to secure.

We will all want our cake and eat it......sadly only a few clubs can do that.

Edited November 13, 2019 by TRO

[Sam-AVFC]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

Its not a grass is greener case ....its just that i Disagree with you on this point.

I know and that wasn't meant to be patronising, I just think as fans we have an understandable tendency to see all the flaws in our game and forgive them for other teams as we aren't watching them week in week out.

The Bournemouth game I disagree with your analysis as I think it was more a case of us being shite with the individual errors than them being particularly resilient. I also think we could have come from behind to win that game with a tiny bit of extra luck.

Brighton I agree have been robust in the main since coming up, but my point is that this season it's a complaint among their fans that they have been a bit too soft and there's no point judging what they used to be like.

[TRO]

19 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

I know and that wasn't meant to be patronising, I just think as fans we have an understandable tendency to see all the flaws in our game and forgive them for other teams as we aren't watching them week in week out.

The Bournemouth game I disagree with your analysis as I think it was more a case of us being shite with the individual errors than them being particularly resilient. I also think we could have come from behind to win that game with a tiny bit of extra luck.

Brighton I agree have been robust in the main since coming up, but my point is that this season it's a complaint among their fans that they have been a bit too soft and there's no point judging what they used to be like.

I accept that its likely to see more warts with your own team as you see them more often.....I make much of my judgement on when I see teams play us... along with highlights of other games.

My reference to flaws in our team is to highlight them to eliminate them and improve.....the flaws in other teams, do not concern me...its not my team...they can stay there for me.

I think it comes back to that thing again is it criticism? constructive criticism? or observations?.....nearly everyone who writes on here are Villa fans.....they want the best for us.

I also accept that errors are forced or unforced......Personally, I don't think we make that many unforced errors such has our quality improved.....I think we are more suseptible to forced errors, but that is to our credit, in some ways and work to be done in other ways.

We will agree to disagree on the Bournemouth game.....I don't think Heaton would have made that error without the initiative from Calum Wilson or Josh King can't remember....chasing down.

Edited November 13, 2019 by TRO

[MotoMkali]

40 minutes ago, TRO said:

I accept that its likely to see more warts with your own team as you see them more often.....I make much of my judgement on when I see teams play us... along with highlights of other games.

I also accept that errors are forced or unforced......Personally, I don't think we make that many unforced errors such has quality improved.....I thin we are more suseptible to forced errors, but that is to our credit.

We will agree to disagree on the Bournemouth game.....I don't think Heaton would have made that error without the initiative from Calum Wilson or Josh King can't remember....chasing down.

Heaton should not have made that error. No professional keeper would. King was about 5 yards from the ball when Heaton was a foot away. If he just went in with gumption he easily gets the ball and the game is a different complexion. On top of that Phillip billing should have been sent off and whilst we don't have a great record against 10 men Bournemouth played the same way as they would have with 10.

 

Aside from that we have constant unforced errors and we need to do much better as a team in retaining the ball. They are mostly unforced due to our lack of movement and predictable nature of we try and play it out from the back. It either goes out wide or we hoof it. So wingers can gamble on the passing lanes and will frequently come out with the ball. This is what happened against wolves and Brighton with Gross' shit shot and I'm sure plenty of other times that I can't remember. 

[romavillan]

Why does 4-3-3 suddenly mean you need amazing players? It's the dutch/spanish/italian/german 4-4-2, just basic staple formation. It can be a million different things. 

I agree Smith's take on 4-3-3 is best suited to home games at the mo, if we forget the wolves game we've looked good with 4-2-3-1 against the better teams and I'd use it away from home. We can always switch to 4-3-3 to chase a game if we need to. 

Anyway, Smith is still doing a great job in my eyes. If we struggle and go down, which I don't think we will, even if this turns into a really bad run. Then I'd back him to continue to develop the squad and bring us back stronger. There seems to be a lot of negativity growing again especially in the match and reactions threads. Heat of the moment stuff granted but way over the top.

He's not above criticism but some people seem to think we should be winning every week or something. 

[MotoMkali]

10 minutes ago, romavillan said:

Why does 4-3-3 suddenly mean you need amazing players? It's the dutch/spanish/italian/german 4-4-2, just basic staple formation. 

It doesn't require amazing players but I requires lots of off the ball movement to take advantage of the extra man in the middle currently we are not doing that and because of that we are struggling. 

[TRO]

31 minutes ago, romavillan said:

Why does 4-3-3 suddenly mean you need amazing players? It's the dutch/spanish/italian/german 4-4-2, just basic staple formation. It can be a million different things. 

I agree Smith's take on 4-3-3 is best suited to home games at the mo, if we forget the wolves game we've looked good with 4-2-3-1 against the better teams and I'd use it away from home. We can always switch to 4-3-3 to chase a game if we need to. 

Anyway, Smith is still doing a great job in my eyes. If we struggle and go down, which I don't think we will, even if this turns into a really bad run. Then I'd back him to continue to develop the squad and bring us back stronger. There seems to be a lot of negativity growing again especially in the match and reactions threads. Heat of the moment stuff granted but way over the top.

He's not above criticism but some people seem to think we should be winning every week or something. 

When you play with 3 up front your work has to be good enough to pre occupy the opposition.....amazing players usually do that.....If they are sub quality, the chances are the duels Dean smith talks about losing, become more likely and we are then playing with passengers. you then need players to stop the opposition.

Dean has already quoted in his after match interviews " didn't win any balls" " we didn't win headers" " didn't win enough duels" " Didn't pass it well" " The best I got out of the first half was it was only 1-0".....Dean has already divulged that players will be on  PDP's ( personal development plans) during the international break......so he clearly see's what many fans see, who have written on here.

I agree, its no good slagging the team off.....there are things they have done well, but for me things that are still not right.....7 defeats in 12 suggest its not OTT.....There are legitimate issues.

When Dean says " It appeared the game was bigger for them than for us"  it is a veiled admission that we lack ( controlled)Aggression.....this needs to be addressed IMO....Its been a flaw for sometime, way before Dean.

When we do enter the transfer market in Jan, I hope we pay attention the players character and hope we sign players that you would feel comfortable in the "Trenches" with.

We have a tendency at times to be too easily Bullied ( e.g Burnely exposed that) and despite that courageous semi final, Albion had some success too, albeit dirty play....but forced us to a penalty shoot out.

Edited November 13, 2019 by TRO

[KentVillan]

We've just played City, Liverpool, and then lost 5 players to injury away at Wolves. I don't really hold the manager responsible.

I don't think 4-3-3 is the problem (you can make it into a defensive 4-1-4-1 away from home) or not rotating (it's too early in the season for rotation to be an issue).

The issues are more:

• Despite our very high investment over the summer, it was spread quite thin, and our overall player value is low compared with most of the teams we're playing.
• Home advantage is a real thing, and we haven't had many "easier" games at Villa Park yet. We have a string of these coming up, starting with Newcastle, and these will be the games that decide our season.
• This is mostly a new set of players. If last season is anything to go by, Smith's system and coaching philosophy will click into place in January. So long as we're in touching distance at that point, I think we can kick on and target a 15th-ish finish with a good finish to the season.
• As much as I do defend Wesley a lot on here, we could definitely do with another strike option in the January window.

I know it's tempting to fish around for dramatic changes, but it really is just as simple as Grealish getting fit, having a good run of fixtures, and things clicking into place. No need to panic just yet.

[Vive_La_Villa]

4 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

We've just played City, Liverpool, and then lost 5 players to injury away at Wolves. I don't really hold the manager responsible.

I don't think 4-3-3 is the problem (you can make it into a defensive 4-1-4-1 away from home) or not rotating (it's too early in the season for rotation to be an issue).

The issues are more:

• Despite our very high investment over the summer, it was spread quite thin, and our overall player value is low compared with most of the teams we're playing.
• Home advantage is a real thing, and we haven't had many "easier" games at Villa Park yet. We have a string of these coming up, starting with Newcastle, and these will be the games that decide our season.
• This is mostly a new set of players. If last season is anything to go by, Smith's system and coaching philosophy will click into place in January. So long as we're in touching distance at that point, I think we can kick on and target a 15th-ish finish with a good finish to the season.
• As much as I do defend Wesley a lot on here, we could definitely do with another strike option in the January window.

I know it's tempting to fish around for dramatic changes, but it really is just as simple as Grealish getting fit, having a good run of fixtures, and things clicking into place. No need to panic just yet.

I agree 433 isn’t the problem it’s the fitness and discipline  of of our wingers that is. They just don’t track runners enough. 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Vive_La_Villa

[MotoMkali]

14 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I agree 433 isn’t the problem it’s the fitness and discipline  of of our wingers that is. They just don’t track runners enough. 

Problem is they have come from dominant sides in weaker leagues. They never had to track runners so playing for us is probably the first time in their career they have ever had to it is no wonder there are lapses of Concentration plus a player like el ghazi wants to be able to counter attack which was probably our most effective tactic in the play off final. If it wasn't for keogh playing out of his skin el ghazi would have had 3 one on one's.