Dean Smith

[Sam-AVFC]

3 hours ago, villalad21 said:

Brentford started seeing defensive improvements right after Smith left. Mid season. Before any summer transfer window.

Barely. The  numbers below equate to 1.5% less goals conceded under Frank. Their scoring output did drop by over 25% though.

To put this in context of Brentford's goals for and against for that year, assuming the figures remained consistent, if Smith had stayed they would have conceded 0 more goals and scored another 17.

Brentford 2018/19

Smith - 10 games, 13 conceded, 1.3/game

20 scored, 2/game

Frank - 36 games, 46 conceded, 1.28/game

53 goals, 1.47/game

[villalad21]

7 hours ago, Sam-AVFC said:

Barely. The  numbers below equate to 1.5% less goals conceded under Frank. Their scoring output did drop by over 25% though.

To put this in context of Brentford's goals for and against for that year, assuming the figures remained consistent, if Smith had stayed they would have conceded 0 more goals and scored another 17.

Brentford 2018/19

Smith - 10 games, 13 conceded, 1.3/game

20 scored, 2/game

Frank - 36 games, 46 conceded, 1.28/game

53 goals, 1.47/game

Also we conceded 64 goals in the promotion season...

And the season before Brentford conceded 52.

This season they have currently 33 goals against.

Has Smith ever in his coaching career conceded below a goal per game? No. And he most likely never will due to his style of play.

 

[Dave-R]

Are we still talking about Smith teams being constantly bombarded with artillery left right and centre?? 

Think its been clear that no way will his teams ever develop a defensive mind because we are to open in the middle of the field and without numbers there. It's also clear that unless Smith can field a team on liverpool's level that this system is hugely wasted as is the work done on the pitch. We massively wasted so much this season and I can't ever see us turning that around because there is no way the best in the world would ever join Smith because of how he plays and how many he concedes right??

No player wants that many goals shipped against them let alone world class players, so I think that alone would hamper us from signing some fantastic players. You also have his inexperience in the league, stubbornness to make the right call in favour of sticking to his guns, (which I can appreciate) but sometimes you need to give in to the obvious choice.

I keep saying to myself that if we get better Wingers and some better midfielders then the problems could be sorted, yet im unsure about that when Smith fails at making his team defensive in the slightest.

While Smith is here we will continue down a road of shipping most goals I believe, the question then for me is can Smith build a real capable attacking squad that is capable of out scoring most premier league teams?? If we do not keep hold of our best and they are sold then the answer is no right away isn't it?? 

There were alot of games this season where Smith chose to carry on going for a total win, when we was already winning by a goal, only to throw the whole game away and reap the defeat instead. That is not smart thinking to the point it becomes down right crazy and unthinkable that a guy in charge would have us play this way. It's as if one goal wasn't enough to win by that Smith somehow thought he was the one that was going to teach these teams a lesson in football, that he believed our lads could carry on and grab one, two or three more on top of the goal that could of seen us pick up points when really. It was not just the wins that should of been protected but the draws to, we stumbled to teams we were drawing with when it looked like a point may of been salvaged only to come out without anything.

As time went on I felt even more convinced that Smith has a reckless way of having his teams play football and that needs to change, because if he can't then I'd be up for any other Coach coming in and replacing him. I always wanted Smith to do well and I believe he has in alot of ways, yet Smith has been his own worst enemy at times, now can he change or will he continue on a route of our squad shipping most goals in the league, I'm sure it wouldnt bother any of us if we were winning out matches, though were not and that's a huge problem isn't it??

If were still a premier outfit the next season by some good luck, then Smith along with many of those players needs to make it right by working harder and making the right choices in the second season in the premier, if we dont we will just repeat this season's results and will definitely be a championship side again.

[foreveryoung]

9 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

I don't think Wilder would be able to make Targett, Hourihane, Luiz, Marvelous suddenly consistent or win a 50/50 tackle.

Most of the summer signings are not Premier League players, we would absolutely be fighting relegation. We would be if Klopp was here.

To win a 50/50 tackle dont take skill chap, it takes discipline and graft. I doubt this team would put out so many of the half heart performances we are used to seeing with Klopp or Wilder at the helm.

We have seen this team perform, an we have seen some great wins this season. But it's the inconsistency which kills us, Smith cannot get a hold of this. The team is not great by all means  but it's not relegation fodder no way.

Edited May 2, 2020 by foreveryoung

[Tomaszk]

1 hour ago, foreveryoung said:

The team is not great by all means but it's not relegation fodder no way.

All comes down to this I suppose. We disagree.

[TRO]

16 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

Jack needed the team playing a certain way to have the effect he did. Dean provided that. He was being strangled horribly under Bruce, as were all the other players and fans.

You're probably right sadly.

However, I'm certain he was given plenty of players that weren't what we needed, and even still if we had a proper striker we would have picked up plenty more points early season. The team could only take so many kicks in the balls to confidence before it was going to stop working entirely.

I think a hybrid of Bruce and Smith might have been ok.

[TRO]

2 hours ago, Dave-R said:

Are we still talking about Smith teams being constantly bombarded with artillery left right and centre?? 

Think its been clear that no way will his teams ever develop a defensive mind because we are to open in the middle of the field and without numbers there. It's also clear that unless Smith can field a team on liverpool's level that this system is hugely wasted as is the work done on the pitch. We massively wasted so much this season and I can't ever see us turning that around because there is no way the best in the world would ever join Smith because of how he plays and how many he concedes right??

No player wants that many goals shipped against them let alone world class players, so I think that alone would hamper us from signing some fantastic players. You also have his inexperience in the league, stubbornness to make the right call in favour of sticking to his guns, (which I can appreciate) but sometimes you need to give in to the obvious choice.

I keep saying to myself that if we get better Wingers and some better midfielders then the problems could be sorted, yet im unsure about that when Smith fails at making his team defensive in the slightest.

While Smith is here we will continue down a road of shipping most goals I believe, the question then for me is can Smith build a real capable attacking squad that is capable of out scoring most premier league teams?? If we do not keep hold of our best and they are sold then the answer is no right away isn't it?? 

There were alot of games this season where Smith chose to carry on going for a total win, when we was already winning by a goal, only to throw the whole game away and reap the defeat instead. That is not smart thinking to the point it becomes down right crazy and unthinkable that a guy in charge would have us play this way. It's as if one goal wasn't enough to win by that Smith somehow thought he was the one that was going to teach these teams a lesson in football, that he believed our lads could carry on and grab one, two or three more on top of the goal that could of seen us pick up points when really. It was not just the wins that should of been protected but the draws to, we stumbled to teams we were drawing with when it looked like a point may of been salvaged only to come out without anything.

As time went on I felt even more convinced that Smith has a reckless way of having his teams play football and that needs to change, because if he can't then I'd be up for any other Coach coming in and replacing him. I always wanted Smith to do well and I believe he has in alot of ways, yet Smith has been his own worst enemy at times, now can he change or will he continue on a route of our squad shipping most goals in the league, I'm sure it wouldnt bother any of us if we were winning out matches, though were not and that's a huge problem isn't it??

If were still a premier outfit the next season by some good luck, then Smith along with many of those players needs to make it right by working harder and making the right choices in the second season in the premier, if we dont we will just repeat this season's results and will definitely be a championship side again.

Very good post Dave and in a nutshell for me.

If i could use an analogy in snooker.....Dean is a Jimmy White.

Great on the eye, but in relative terms wins nothing....too open and reckless.

fills stadiums, but not trophy cabinets......but eventually fans will be worn down by goals conceded.

I am convinced that as long as the spectacle is there ,some fans will be satisfied, even at the expense of winning football.

I fear like you Dean will not change and I fear the next signings will be much of the same....but i am happy to be wrong.

I am like you, I just want winning football, where you attack and defend in equally competent measure.

[TRO]

2 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

To win a 50/50 tackle dont take skill chap, it takes discipline and graft. I doubt this team would put out so many of the half heart performances we are used to seeing with Klopp or Wilder at the helm.

We have seen this team perform, an we have seen some great wins this season. But it's the inconsistency which kills us, Smith cannot get a hold of this. The team is not great by all means  but it's not relegation fodder no way.

I fear your'e right.

I have a real doubt about the leadership and discipline.

I thought he was wrong when he allowed Mings and El Ghazi to sort out there contretemps.....He should have been straight in the dressing room and made his stance, instead of hiding behind a TV interview......It was a golden opportunity to show his authority....he failed Imo.

I don't feel he has a grip on anything.

[TRO]

I want Dean more than anything to be successful.

I have no doubt, he does his best and I am sure he wants the best for the club.

He is a very personable chap and an easy guy to like, without knowing him.

I can understand why the club appointed him.

but....

He has no future, conceding the amount of goals we have been, the spectacle is not a trade off we can afford and conceding 2 goals every game means you have to score 3 to win.....that is an unreasonable ask.

He has to re-examine his vision.

[foreveryoung]

Put it simply, I always thought he tries to play Man City/Liverpool football with players who haven't got that skill level. You can tell the players get frustrated that Smith sometimes asks to much of them, then throws them under the bus in interviews when they dont perform. Basic football can sometimes be the best football if you haven't got the players, like.....you guessed it, Wilder has got Sheffield playing.

[Zatman]

16 hours ago, villalad21 said:

Brentford started seeing defensive improvements right after Smith left. Mid season. Before any summer transfer window.

They won 2 out of the next 15 games just after Smith left including shipping 3 goals or more in 4 games

[Sam-AVFC]

5 hours ago, villalad21 said:

Also we conceded 64 goals in the promotion season...

And the season before Brentford conceded 52.

This season they have currently 33 goals against.

Has Smith ever in his coaching career conceded below a goal per game? No. And he most likely never will due to his style of play.

 

Irrelevant to the point you made.

So they only conceded 1.13 a game the year before? Not sure how this reflects badly.

That is a very good record this year, but your claim was implicitly that Frank INSTANTLY improved the defence not after the transfer window in which they spent a load of money. on a whole new defence including blowing their wage structure for Jansson.

No he hasn't. But then neither has Sam Allardyce, who you always bang on about, since the 9 games in his first season. In fact he conceded 2/game in West Ham's Championship year.  Chris Wilder only achieved it for the first time in his career last year etc etc

Do I think we are good enough defensively? No. You just oversimplify it and refuse to give ANY credit even changing the basis for your arguments as they are disproved.

[sne]

7 hours ago, villalad21 said:

Also we conceded 64 goals in the promotion season...

And the season before Brentford conceded 52.

This season they have currently 33 goals against.

Has Smith ever in his coaching career conceded below a goal per game? No. And he most likely never will due to his style of play.

 

Goal against average 18/19

Villa under Bruce: 1.63 per game.

Villa under Smith 1.22 per game.

The reason our defensive record was so poor that season was that we had to play more than half of it without a defense. Blame whoever you wan't for that.

Once we managed to fix this and the January window closed we averaged something (from memory) like 0.7-0.9 goals against for the remainder of the season

Edited May 2, 2020 by sne

[Tomaszk]

4 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

Put it simply, I always thought he tries to play Man City/Liverpool football with players who haven't got that skill level. You can tell the players get frustrated that Smith sometimes asks to much of them, then throws them under the bus in interviews when they dont perform. Basic football can sometimes be the best football if you haven't got the players, like.....you guessed it, Wilder has got Sheffield playing.

I've said this to @TRO as well, but if you think Sheffield Utd's football is basic you're very wrong. It's incredibly advanced and modern. Insulting to them to think that's basic football.

Burnley's is pretty basic. Newcastle, don't even have a style, they don't do anything. Do I want to watch us do that? Absolutely not, no interest.

Smith tries to do something expansive naively but doesn't have players who can do it. That's his problem that it looks like he can't sort out sadly.

What did it do last year though? It got us 10 wins in a row and has led to sell outs every home game with 8,000 (!) people waiting to buy a season ticket. That's what attractive football can do if done right.

[TRO]

4 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

Put it simply, I always thought he tries to play Man City/Liverpool football with players who haven't got that skill level. You can tell the players get frustrated that Smith sometimes asks to much of them, then throws them under the bus in interviews when they dont perform. Basic football can sometimes be the best football if you haven't got the players, like.....you guessed it, Wilder has got Sheffield playing.

Abso bloody lutely spot on.

[TRO]

5 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

I've said this to @TRO as well, but if you think Sheffield Utd's football is basic you're very wrong. It's incredibly advanced and modern. Insulting to them to think that's basic football.

Burnley's is pretty basic. Newcastle, don't even have a style, they don't do anything. Do I want to watch us do that? Absolutely not, no interest.

Smith tries to do something expansive naively but doesn't have players who can do it. That's his problem that it looks like he can't sort out sadly.

What did it do last year though? It got us 10 wins in a row and has led to sell outs every home game with 8,000 (!) people waiting to buy a season ticket. That's what attractive football can do if done right.

But you also fail to mention the 1 win in 10 prior to the 10 win run......its inconsistent football.

we are waiting for it to be done right in this league.

Sheff Utd play a brand that is dictated by their manager.....The individuals and their skills are basic...Chris Wilder has them playing a way that is Effective.....Ron Saunders did the same 40 years earlier, he made a functional machine based on players that fitted in to a system dominated by work ....that is not to say they was short on skill, but it was not the main denominator.

Their Mantra of workrate is baulked at by many,as too fundamental to be credible.....but its not.

unless you have the best players in the world, you have to find another way.....they did.

I do not subscribe to the theory this game has a magic system seemingly discovered by Wilder....its a mature game of c 130 years old most systems have been thought of and regurgitated over the years....applying the basics is sometimes overlooked and underrated and subsequently under valued....but it takes a special leader to galvanise it and make it effective.

We are falling in to a trap of copying the best teams, without the best players......its a fruitless pursuit.....unless we can get those players and then you have to galvanise them in to a unit.

Edited May 2, 2020 by TRO

[villalad21]

2 hours ago, sne said:

Goal against average 18/19

Villa under Bruce: 1.63 per game.

Villa under Smith 1.22 per game.

The reason our defensive record was so poor that season was that we had to play more than half of it without a defense. Blame whoever you wan't for that.

Once we managed to fix this and the January window closed we averaged something (from memory) like 0.7-0.9 goals against for the remainder of the season

But with millions to spend on the defense it has gotten worse. Even worse than last season.

Different level of course but still. Didn't expect us to be the worst defensive side in the league.

 

[Tomaszk]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

But you also fail to mention the 1 win in 10 prior to the 10 win run......its inconsistent football.

Sheff Utd play a brand that is dictated by their manager.....The individuals are their skills are basic...Chris Wilder has them playing a way that is Effective.....Ron Saunders did the same 40 years earlier, he made a function machine ...work.

Their Mantra of workrate is baulked at by many as too fundamental.....but its not.

unless you have the best players in the world, you have to find another way.....they did.

We are falling in to a trap of coying the best teams, without the best players.

That was a terrible run. He had only been at the club three months though. No pre-season, no centre halves, a keeper throwing the ball in the net every shot. Plus the obvious mess from Steve Bruce and YES I know he said it wasn't a car crash, but that's because he's got a brain and announcing (take note Conor Hourihane) we're struggling because the previous manager has left him half a squad wouldn't have helped anyone. There's managers who would make that move by the way, Dean Smith isn't one.

If you think Dean Smith is saying working hard doesn't matter, I can't help you. We work very hard, but in the wrong formation and with players that aren't good enough so we lose all the time. Half of that is Smith's fault, the other half is Suso.

You're determined to talk down Sheffield Utd for some reason, there's nothing basic about them. Nothing.

[villalad21]

3 hours ago, sne said:

Goal against average 18/19

Villa under Bruce: 1.63 per game.

Villa under Smith 1.22 per game.

The reason our defensive record was so poor that season was that we had to play more than half of it without a defense. Blame whoever you wan't for that.

Once we managed to fix this and the January window closed we averaged something (from memory) like 0.7-0.9 goals against for the remainder of the season

I find it sad how little trust we put in our U-23's

Even if we only have 1 fit CB they still don't get a chance. 

Hutton higher in the pecking order as a CB than our youth. IMO it's a disgrace

Edited May 2, 2020 by villalad21

[TRO]

20 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

That was a terrible run. He had only been at the club three months though. No pre-season, no centre halves, a keeper throwing the ball in the net every shot. Plus the obvious mess from Steve Bruce and YES I know he said it wasn't a car crash, but that's because he's got a brain and announcing (take note Conor Hourihane) we're struggling because the previous manager has left him half a squad wouldn't have helped anyone. There's managers who would make that move by the way, Dean Smith isn't one.

If you think Dean Smith is saying working hard doesn't matter, I can't help you. We work very hard, but in the wrong formation and with players that aren't good enough so we lose all the time. Half of that is Smith's fault, the other half is Suso.

You're determined to talk down Sheffield Utd for some reason, there's nothing basic about them. Nothing.

So why did he manage a 10 game winning run 2 months later?....do you mean to tell me the car crash was fixed that quick....Sorry, not buying that.....maybe Jack returning was more like it.

On the contrary, I talk about Sheff Utd for what they are ,a very effective side.....but not for the reasons you allude to.....there is no magic system, there is a system that Chris Wilder has devised for the resource he has......all systems are reconcoctions of previous managers systems from yesteryear....its all been done before.

So you don't agree with me....thats fine.

I would also point out teams are always in a dynamic state and at any given time have issues of some sort......rarely does any manager take over a job like Villa and have a settled ready made side for promotion, if they did, last manager wouldn't have been sacked....so I think the point is moot.....Dean did well in his first year but has now had 18 months and the concerns are clear by all....so there is still much work to do, provided he sees it.....when he leaves, the next manager, will have similar challenges, they always do.

blimey SAF had his critics when he left and he had 25 years at it.

I don't share your view that a lot of these things are new or a result of a modern concept...I believe they are the insight of managers who can put all the crucial elements of past successes and galvanise them in to a single force.....individual players no matter how talented will not  suffice unless a team is built, with the right character and will to win implimented by a strong leader.

Edited May 3, 2020 by TRO