Israel, Palestine and Iran

[bickster]

15 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Not at all. I initially thought this too, as well as of reservists, but it doesn't look like many there are below the rank of sergeant, which if I'm not wrong is a voluntary rank you attain after compulsory service is complete. Someone who knows more than me could probably chime in and correct me. 

You would still be a reservist until at least the age of 40. There are whole reservist battalions, they must have reservist NCOs and Officers.

Also highlighting the ones that have ranks doesn’t diminish the slaughter one the ones that clearly do not.

[magnkarl]

14 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Not at all. I initially thought this too, as well as of reservists, but it doesn't look like many there are below the rank of sergeant, which if I'm not wrong is a voluntary rank you attain after compulsory service is complete. Someone who knows more than me could probably chime in and correct me. 

As far as I gather you attain a higher rank than that if you specialise in something. Not that I'm all clued up on this. We also need to remember that a lot of the 200 or so people not identified came from the civilian areas that were attacked, Hamas burnt down houses and torched people in their beds and cars to hinder investigation, while they would not do the same to IDF personell. 

One of the people that was identified last was a Bedouin taxi-driver who brought people to the festival, he was shot 21 times along with his two female foreign passengers, then they set the car on fire. 

[magnkarl]

3 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

Many of the population are reservists as a result of the extreme risk that the country will need to go into total war mode to fend off an attack on all sides by all its neighbours as has happened before.

I ask again, so what? Are unarmed civilian reservists and former national service kids legit targets? What exactly are you trying to say by posting a list of names and pointing out that a great many have military rank? Can you answer please.

It's doing the rounds in social media, you'll get the reasoning for why people are posting it there and it doesn't look good.

[desensitized43]

14 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

It's doing the rounds in social media, you'll get the reasoning for why people are posting it there and it doesn't look good.

I don’t really care what the cesspit of Twatter says. It’s full of trolls, bots, racists, communists, anarchists, antisemites, fascists and extemists.

Just for once though I’d like someone to own what they posts and say what they mean rather than dropping a link which implies something and then cowardly running from it.

[Keyblade]

5 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

Many of the population are reservists as a result of the extreme risk that the country will need to go into total war mode to fend off an attack on all sides by all its neighbours as has happened before.

I ask again, so what? Are unarmed civilian reservists and former national service kids legit targets? What exactly are you trying to say by posting a list of names and pointing out that a great many have military rank? Can you answer please.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm wondering how many active military personnel are listed there, not former conscripts or reservists. Since I'm not exactly well versed in IDF corporal structure, seeing so many "Colonel" and "Lieutenant" ranks listed was quite shocking. 

[Nicho]

Ive seen things stating that Gaza is blocking a rival project for the Suez Canal and that it has geographic control over a potential off sea gas field, proabably just conspiracy theories. 

I dont see a scenario where Israel take Gaza completely, they probably want to but I think it would be all out war in the region if they did. 

[lapal_fan]

16 hours ago, blandy said:

The thing is, and I'm not dismissing your point or anything, it's one thing for some kind of "resistance" to spring up out of oppression and all the rest of it [abbreviated for space], but it's another thing entirely for the behaviour of that "resistance" to morph into cold blooded murder of children and old people, innocents one and all because they are [Jews]. It's not any kind of justification at all, and as @bickster pointed out before, it's completely counter-productive - just as Israel's horrific bombardment of the West Bank (and countless other "punishments") have been.

However it started (Hamas, I mean) , what it is now, is not a resistance movement against occupation and oppression, it's a murderous group with zero respect for the lives of Palestinians or Israelis.

I'm fairly confident that what they did was intended to provoke the kind of regrettable reaction it got from Israel's own whoppers of a government. They were set up with the objective (however fanciful) of the elimination of Israel and Israelis. Less a resistance, more a kind of Isis like death cult.

I hope your friend has good news on the health front.

 

Just wanted to step back for this, because what you said is absolutely true, there is NO justification for what Hamas are doing - I think/thought that went without saying.

However, the two groups involved in this conflict (Jews/Arabs) have both gone down the "classic Goebbels route" of dehumanising the opposition.  It's always happened in war.  Frankly, whilst we are pretty rough creatures by nature, we still have empathy and kindness hard-wired into us.  You only have to watch videos from both sides, slandering the other side with minute long videos, cutting from scene to scene, featuring people shouting "those dogs will die!" etc.  It's not hard to behead or shoot something you don't deem as an equal.

It's part of the tragedy of war, and as someone sat in jolly-old-England, I can't possibly imagine why they do this to each other, but they feel as though they must. 

My original posts in this thread are not to favour either of the sides at war, but point out that there does seem to be a power imbalance, and the resulting deaths of innocents is... I've ran out of adjectives to describe catastrophes and suffering when as you pointed out, enough dead innocent people to fill the lower Holte End ffs..   

This war is built on eons of religious differences, cultural difference, geopolitical difference, historic difference and societal differences.  Until people start to look at the human behind all that veneer, it'll continue.  And unfortunately, those differences are all the construct of leaders, who get away scot-free while they watch (with vested interest) the world burn around them. 

[meregreen]

Have to say, the interviews and thoughts of the leaders of both Hamas and Hezbolah, don’t fill me with optimism when it comes to the possibility of a negotiated solution. The Palestinian authority on the West Bank seem to be more reasonable, in that they don’t seem to want to kill every Jew in the region. I don’t envy anybody who has to bring those three together.

[VILLAMARV]

1 hour ago, lapal_fan said:

................dehumanising the opposition.  It's always happened in war...................It's not hard to behead or shoot something you don't deem as an equal.

Quote

Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire

 

[meregreen]

Personally, I think it’s more fear, that causes people to react violently. Until that fear of each other is removed, it’s difficult to see any way forward.

[magnkarl]

54 minutes ago, meregreen said:

Have to say, the interviews and thoughts of the leaders of both Hamas and Hezbolah, don’t fill me with optimism when it comes to the possibility of a negotiated solution. The Palestinian authority on the West Bank seem to be more reasonable, in that they don’t seem to want to kill every Jew in the region. I don’t envy anybody who has to bring those three together.

Israel isn't going to be safe until Iran loses its grip over Lebanon, Syria and Gaza, Hezbollah are never going to negotiate with a Jew, be she/he Israeli or from elsewhere. The Palestinian Authority often clashes with Hamas because they're totally different entities, PA seeks betterment for the Palestinians while Hamas seeks betterment for their leaders through Islamic Jihad and deaths to the Jews.

I think what most people want is an end to us the pummeling of Gaza to get at an estimated 40.000 fighters, though I presume many of Hamas' fighters aren't in Gaza anymore and have been smuggled out via Egypt, Syria and Lebanon. There's videos of what Hamas' leadership did while their goons went on a rampage Oct 7th, they were praying for 'positive outcomes to the operation' in their luxury office in Doha. Israel should re-invigorate its nazi hunting squads tbh, and go after the head of the snake rather than cowards hiding below 2 million civilians.

Edited November 8, 2023 by magnkarl

[KentVillan]

21 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Israel isn't going to be safe until Iran loses its grip over Lebanon, Syria and Gaza, Hezbollah are never going to negotiate with a Jew, be she/he Israeli or from elsewhere. The Palestinian Authority often clashes with Hamas because they're totally different entities, PA seeks betterment for the Palestinians while Hamas seeks betterment for their leaders through Islamic Jihad and deaths to the Jews.

I think what most people want is an end to us the pummeling of Gaza to get at an estimated 40.000 fighters, though I presume many of Hamas' fighters aren't in Gaza anymore and have been smuggled out via Egypt, Syria and Lebanon. There's videos of what Hamas' leadership did while their goons went on a rampage Oct 7th, they were praying for 'positive outcomes to the operation' in their luxury office in Doha. Israel should re-invigorate its nazi hunting squads tbh, and go after the head of the snake rather than cowards hiding below 2 million civilians.

Agree with all this, but don’t you agree there are plenty of equally despicable characters on the Israeli side who are corrupt, disingenuous, and outsourcing all the risk to others?

Somehow the more reasonable voices on both sides need to become more prominent and influential again. Getting rid of Netanyahu (and not replacing him with a similar personality) would help a lot.

[magnkarl]

45 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

Agree with all this, but don’t you agree there are plenty of equally despicable characters on the Israeli side who are corrupt, disingenuous, and outsourcing all the risk to others?

Somehow the more reasonable voices on both sides need to become more prominent and influential again. Getting rid of Netanyahu (and not replacing him with a similar personality) would help a lot.

Benny is toast. The people of Israel are in demonstrations outside his house, with the family of the kidnapping victims and dead from 7.10 being at the forefront of the protests. He's chosen to go and 'see the troops' and take selfies with them instead of talking to the families.

He was supposed to keep people safe, instead he focused on being more and more idiotic in his message. Hopefully this leads to a Yitzhak Rabin kind of character to be elected rather than another Donald Trump. The issue seems to be getting a moderate view through when you are constantly getting rockets coming in from Lebanon, when Iran is probing at your border through militias in Syria and Hamas' leadership is effectively shielded from justice by Turkey and Qatar. There's a lot of far-right ammunition to play on right there, also due to the mentality that is branded into the Jewish community from so many years of being chased from door to door.

The far right message in Israel is that there's 22 Arab nations in the world, yet all of these nations in some way or form have it in for Israel/Jews, rather than trying to work on the issue.

Edited November 8, 2023 by magnkarl

[chrisp65]

 

 

Symbolic, or performative depending on your bent. But MS’s from Plaid, LibDem, and Labour (against Labour policy) have called for a ceasefire.

 

[omariqy]

I see all this talk of one side wanting to wipe out the other side. Yet theres only one side that is taking actual steps to put this into practice. 

[meregreen]

5 hours ago, omariqy said:

I see all this talk of one side wanting to wipe out the other side. Yet theres only one side that is taking actual steps to put this into practice. 

Only one side has the capacity to do it, true. But only Hamas and Hezbolah actually have it as a stated aim. 

[Mic09]

Just wondering out loud here - why the heck would any Israeli want to live anywhere near the Gaza strip?

I saw a report of a family being killed in a small village, the village was literally behind the wall surrounding the strip.

At what point over the last x years does one think - heck, I gotta get out of here? 

Sure people have jobs and houses, kids go to a local school. But wouldn't you want your family out of there at some point over the last 20-30 years?! 

For all the talk of 'This is my homeland' it's a war zone with frequent terrorist attacks and rocket strikes. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Mic09

[lapal_fan]

39 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Just wondering out loud here - why the heck would any Israeli want to live anywhere near the Gaza strip?

I saw a report of a family being killed in a small village, the village was literally behind the wall surrounding the strip.

At what point over the last x years does one think - heck, I gotta get out of here? 

Sure people have jobs and houses, kids go to a local school. But wouldn't you want your family out of there at some point over the last 20-30 years?! 

For all the talk of 'This is my homeland' it's a war zone with frequent terrorist attacks and rocket strikes. 

Ahh don't worry about it.

God'll look after you.

[omariqy]

1 hour ago, Mic09 said:

Just wondering out loud here - why the heck would any Israeli want to live anywhere near the Gaza strip?

I saw a report of a family being killed in a small village, the village was literally behind the wall surrounding the strip.

At what point over the last x years does one think - heck, I gotta get out of here? 

Sure people have jobs and houses, kids go to a local school. But wouldn't you want your family out of there at some point over the last 20-30 years?! 

For all the talk of 'This is my homeland' it's a war zone with frequent terrorist attacks and rocket strikes. 

Once they annihilate all the Palestines then they won't have anyone to fight back against their racist and apartheid ways. They can concentrate on drugging Ethiopian Jewish mothers instead 

[omariqy]

8 hours ago, meregreen said:

Only one side has the capacity to do it, true. But only Hamas and Hezbolah actually have it as a stated aim. 

Only one side is doing it.