Steve Bruce

[Stevo985]

2 hours ago, thabucks said:

So you believe the performances from the players are from players who are 100% behind Bruce and his tactics and his methods? Is the dressing room truly behind him if so how do you know? 

And yes I am saying that as he has never been known as a pretty football, or possession based tactical type manager this is how he plays the game. He has had enough time and bought enough players of own to make a difference and if he truly wanted to change our  playing style. And yes i am saying he is paying lip service to the fans and playing the media game with his comments as it's what all managers do. Keeps the fans onside. Makes interesting sound bites and headlines. 

He has done wonders you can't deny at small clubs but this is his biggest job and he isn't up to the task. He isn't using or doesn't know how to utilise the players at his disposal. 

Yes I believe they are performances from players who are behind the manager. I don't know this, I believe this.

Fair enough, that's your opinion. It makes no sense, but you're entitled to it.

[mykeyb]

5 hours ago, TRO said:

 

If its all down to Steve Bruce , why is Taylor ok.

If every player was playing shite it may have a semblance of order, but they are not.

If you are claiming that because one player looks OK that it cannot be the manager then I am at a loss, probably much like Bruce when he is planning for a game...

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, pacbuddies said:

I don't know about anyone else but in the 20+ years that Bruce has been a football manager I have never glanced favourably and enviously at any of his teams and thought 'they play a good brand of passing and attacking football I wish he was the Villa manager'.

Nor have I. 

But then again I've not said that about any manager we could currently attract, or could have attracted when we hired Bruce.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, thabucks said:

Following on from earlier  I work within and see the daily workings of a football club and know the manager reasonably well to chat about these types of things. What is said after and before games is well rehearsed, cliched and not always near the truth. They say things to protect themselves and/or the players.

It's a self serving game. A manager will always try to protect his reputation as in doing so will hopefully mean when the chop does fall he will find a new job. Also they play to the fans emotions and try to stay onside and tell the fans what they think they want to hear, buying them more time. So no I don't always believe what the manager or any manager says to the press one little bit. I trust my eyes on these matters not my ears. 

Well they are points that are hard to argue with.

Its ok to say you trust your eyes, but your eyes only pass it to the brain and thats where differences of opinion get computed.

How many times have you heard the term " you must have watched a different game to me......well its the same game interpreted differently.....and each fan is right, in their mind.

With the amount of huge sums in the game of course sophisticated responces and nebulous statements take centre stage. However some of Steve's responses do seem a tad colloquial and without and preconceived alibi's.

I watch the game just like you.

We pretty much agree on what we are watching.....but we perhaps have a different view of how to put it right.

[mykeyb]

4 hours ago, TRO said:

I would agree its hard to believe they are sitting deep out of choosing.....but there are still options to the cause.

It seems strange to me that Jed is out again and bang.....defensive errors creep in to what we believe is a solid defence.

I am not trying to guide anyone down a certain route, I am merely asking questions, but what if the midfield doesn't trust the defence or in fact they are getting beaten in " ring craft" ( pardon the boxing term) by the opposition midfield and its that that forces them to retreat.

How can we be sure we know?

So the narrative that Bruce has made us hard to beat, rolled out by you as defence of the manager is incorrect and is more down to Jedinak back from injury. Hourihane and Lansbury both sitting back further than they did at their previous club is nothing to do with how the manager sets us up and playing to instruction when in fact he wants them to replicate their form previously signing for us but they cannot or will not.............not for me I am afraid.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

If you are claiming that because one player looks OK that it cannot be the manager then I am at a loss, probably much like Bruce when he is planning for a game...

well i think the point was challenging his coaching or his responsibility for coaching

Well my point was, are you suggesting he coaches some well and some badly.....because clearly some players are playing ok.

is that clear enough?

[mykeyb]

41 minutes ago, TRO said:

Just some selective quotes from Steve Bruce this season......

"Pretty Pathetic Stuff"

Norwich 1 Villa 0 ,Carrow Rd December 13

" We certainly didn't take part in the game...On days like this you apologise to people who have travelled. It was pretty pathetic stuff"

"Man Up"

Cardiff 1 Villa 0 ,Cardiff City Stadium January 2

"The sheer lack of quality to do the basics right was simply not good enough.....so they can either man up to it and say we've got to do it this way or alternatively,I'll find a team eventually that will play MY game"

" Just Unacceptable"

Wolves 1 Villa 0, Molineux, January 14

" Some of the stuff was unacceptable......What we have produced is not good enough to get a result in this division, let alone win a local derby"

" Sometimes you just feel embarrassed"

Brentford 3 Villa 0, Griffin Park,Jan 31

" We were totally abject.....We was so easy to play against.....I can only apologise"

" We xxxxxx around with it"

Blackburn 1 Villa 0, Ewood Park, April 29

" I didn't see us take part in the game...I didn't see us create a chance, beat a man, win a challenge....I didn't see us do anything"

"I am disappointed, angry & upset, but it doesn't really matter does it... what does matter to me is that they are supposed to be my team and they are supposed to mirror the manager a little bit"....."certainly what I saw today isn't good enough"

 

You can all draw your own conclusions, but that does not strike me as manager who is getting from them what he is expecting.

Now if that is a criticism aimed at him, maybe he needs to be ready to correct that for the start of the season.

If I won the lottery and then bought the club and made myself manager and then me to season made those kind of comments after a poor performance would you be saying that "it sounds like the manager isn't getting what he expects from the team" or "this prat is clueless and has lost the dressing room"

4 previous promotions is no guarantee of future success, Tim Sherwood once got a team to a cup final..........

[mykeyb]

10 minutes ago, TRO said:

well i think the point was challenging his coaching or his responsibility for coaching

Well my point was, are you suggesting he coaches some well and some badly.....because clearly some players are playing ok.

is that clear enough?

So again one player looks and I quote you "OK" and this is a sign that he coached the team well but some players are rubbish........or I am not understanding the point at all.

[mykeyb]

I do suspect that the manager may only get to spend what he can raise by sales this summer as the board won't wholeheartedly support him.

[TRO]

1 minute ago, mykeyb said:

So the narrative that Bruce has made us hard to beat, rolled out by you as defence of the manager is incorrect and is more down to Jedinak back from injury. Hourihane and Lansbury both sitting back further than they did at their previous club is nothing to do with how the manager sets us up and playing to instruction when in fact he wants them to replicate their form previously signing for us but they cannot or will not.............not for me I am afraid.

Fair enough, not for you.

I was offering options to the static argument that Bruce is shit.....I was offering alternative thoughts or possibilities.....not hard and fast statements.

There are so many opinions of speculation and individuals interpretation of our game.....we are clearly not all right.

I think more than me think, he has set us up hard to beat and in many cases that is the consensus and in some cases it has not worked.

Its not my defence of the manager, its merely me trying to get a balanced argument as to where the problem lies and give him some mitigation.

We are all in agreement there is a problem,I am just not sure, IT ALL lies with the manager in a direct fashion.....for sure in an indirect fashion he is responsible, probably for the floodlights too.

[TRO]

54 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

If I won the lottery and then bought the club and made myself manager and then me to season made those kind of comments after a poor performance would you be saying that "it sounds like the manager isn't getting what he expects from the team" or "this prat is clueless and has lost the dressing room"

4 previous promotions is no guarantee of future success, Tim Sherwood once got a team to a cup final..........

In the time alloted and from what I have seen myself, I would say the job is much bigger than we all first thought.....you as i assume completely disagree.

There, we have both got no where.

I think many players are not good enough or too samey, the balance is not right......I think one window is too much to get all this right.

I think like many big jobs, he has attempted to fix things and some have worked and others haven't......hence more time.

However it all boils down to a decision........stick or twist......and possibly fix it or put us back another 3 seasons.

If you have the name of this manager that can transform us in to free flowing attacking force that is miserly at the back and controlling in midfield.....I'm all ears.

 

Edited May 2, 2017 by TRO

[terrytini]

18 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Yes I believe they are performances from players who are behind the manager. I don't know this, I believe this.

Fair enough, that's your opinion. It makes no sense, but you're entitled to it.

So I've got a lot of agreement both ways, but one massive disagreement with some..........

Bit in Bold - 100% agree. They are right behind him.  I see no lack of effort. 

Totally agree with TRO that Bruce has often come out and said we were awful  - how could he not do so ?  Its blindingly obvious to anyone who watches us that we are regularly awful. He definitely hates what 's happening.

Totally agree with Mark about the mess we were in  - not sure it was underestimated though - I recall Richard and myself to name just 2 saying over and over that the freefall and negligence Dr Tony inherited, along with the HUGE gap in points and goals between us and Newcastle, was never going to be corrected in one year .

Totally agree that there are massive - potential - benefits to be reaped by sticking with Bruce - but also agree wit those who say there are massive risks because he has shown little hard evidence of progress.

I absolutely can't agree that a Manager as experienced as him , with players as experienced as these is "struggling to get his message across " or variations on this theme - TRO I can't get my head around the fact you buy that - what an insult to Bruce apart from anything else, over 30 games to say to the GK, or Baker, "stop hoofing it" ?  Months to say to Lansbury "please get up the pitch a bit "?

Nah - I respectfully submit the very idea is balderdash ! (If it IS true he should be sacked right now if he cant manage that )

Which leaves one thing -

they are playing for him,

he does get his message across,

but as is clear as day from selections, tactics, player positions, differences in player performance from previous Clubs, and Bruces OWN HISTORY !!! - not to mention his own comments to the effect we do alright at home - (no, we don't Steve, we play as poorly at home as we do away).........

that he is way too negative, it invites pressure, it restricts forward movement, it leaves too much for the midfield to do, it isolates front men, it allows the likes of Gardner into the team, it means we sometimes play 3 or 4 full backs etc, it makes him needlessly try a back 3, it makes a holding midfielder indispensable.

From what see and hear at matches and on here there are a handful of VT ers and Bruce himself who don't see that and instead come up with all manner of convoluted explanations.

Ah I hear you say, but if you can see it he would see it .............would he ? I've never met a football Manager yet who thinks there is any other way to play other than the way they play.

[TRO]

13 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

So again one player looks and I quote you "OK" and this is a sign that he coached the team well but some players are rubbish........or I am not understanding the point at all.

Blimey, I am i that bad at explaining.....perhaps I'm getting tired.

The allegation was, he is a shit coach, to summarise the point

He is coaching the WHOLE team.....some are playing ok some are not.....some posters have quoted Lansbury & Hourihane are down to Bruce, my point was what about Taylor he has the same coach.

My point was there, is no point.

[DaveAV1]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

Yeah, true. If you consider "changing the coaching" as indecisive. The risk of changing manager in the light of results mid season is one that every single club has. It's part of sporting life. No one can accurately predict the future with any certainty. You just have to go with what you think is for the best. Your opinion is as valid as mine.

I guess we're all hoping that one way or the other, new coach, new manager whatever, a light will suddenly come on and things will be much brighter. I'm not sure what the real answer is, I've lost faith in Steve Bruce but to sack him without a plan is definitely not it. It's the lack of a cohesive plan that considers the short , medium and long term that has been killing us. 

[TRO]

34 minutes ago, terrytini said:

So I've got a lot of agreement both ways, but one massive disagreement with some..........

Bit in Bold - 100% agree. They are right behind him.  I see no lack of effort. 

Totally agree with TRO that Bruce has often come out and said we were awful  - how could he not do so ?  Its blindingly obvious to anyone who watches us that we are regularly awful. He definitely hates what 's happening.

Totally agree with Mark about the mess we were in  - not sure it was underestimated though - I recall Richard and myself to name just 2 saying over and over that the freefall and negligence Dr Tony inherited, along with the HUGE gap in points and goals between us and Newcastle, was never going to be corrected in one year .

Totally agree that there are massive - potential - benefits to be reaped by sticking with Bruce - but also agree wit those who say there are massive risks because he has shown little hard evidence of progress.

I absolutely can't agree that a Manager as experienced as him , with players as experienced as these is "struggling to get his message across " or variations on this theme - TRO I can't get my head around the fact you buy that - what an insult to Bruce apart from anything else, over 30 games to say to the GK, or Baker, "stop hoofing it" ?  Months to say to Lansbury "please get up the pitch a bit "?

Nah - I respectfully submit the very idea is balderdash ! (If it IS true he should be sacked right now if he cant manage that )

Which leaves one thing -

they are playing for him,

he does get his message across,

but as is clear as day from selections, tactics, player positions, differences in player performance from previous Clubs, and Bruces OWN HISTORY !!! - not to mention his own comments to the effect we do alright at home - (no, we don't Steve, we play as poorly at home as we do away).........

that he is way too negative, it invites pressure, it restricts forward movement, it leaves too much for the midfield to do, it isolates front men, it allows the likes of Gardner into the team, it means we sometimes play 3 or 4 full backs etc, it makes him needlessly try a back 3, it makes a holding midfielder indispensable.

From what see and hear at matches and on here there are a handful of VT ers and Bruce himself who don't see that and instead come up with all manner of convoluted explanations.

Ah I hear you say, but if you can see it he would see it .............would he ? I've never met a football Manager yet who thinks there is any other way to play other than the way they play.

Terry, to be fair some of the points against him are tangible.....However, I cannot answer why that message is not getting across anymore than Jose could answer why he was not getting anything from Eden Hazard in his last days at Chelsea......Or Pepe struggled with Aguero in his early term.

We need to be clear here.....no one who is attempting to put forward positive points in favour of Steve Bruce and at the same time dismissing the arguments put forward against him.

I simply, don't know (" know" being the operative word) what is wrong with us, unlike many I am reluctant at THIS STAGE to hang the manager.....He has to find a way to fix it and he knows that.

I have read many of your posts and they are very well written, and reasonable, but I am still unsure what you are trying to say your position is on Steve Bruce is.

In answer to your " struggling to get his message across" is balderdash.....I have no monopoly on the answers Terry, just offering possibilities of what the problem is.

I am not Unequivocal on my theories of whats wrong....However judging by his after match comments ( and I am not a detective) but it does not strike me as a team playing to his expectations/orders.

If thats sackable at this stage of the project......sack him.

Edited May 2, 2017 by TRO

[TRO]

I find inconceivable with all the advisers/football people in and around Aston Villa Football club that a general consensus of opinion of Steve Bruce does not find its way to the hierarchy.

 

[DCJonah]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

Yes I believe they are performances from players who are behind the manager. I don't know this, I believe this.

Fair enough, that's your opinion. It makes no sense, but you're entitled to it.

I'd say it also makes no sense that professional footballers who have been coached since the age of around 5 years old, aren't able to follow basic instructions if their manager is asking them and criticising them in the press after games. 

Like said above, we're not looking at complex tactical decisions. Stop hoofing the ball, play further up the pitch. If these players are behind the manager and can't follow simple instructions then I'm amazed they've reached the level they have. 

Lansbury and Hourihane seemed to be able to play differently just weeks before being signed by Bruce. Yet now they can't. That seems strange to me. 

[mykeyb]

9 minutes ago, TRO said:

I find inconceivable with all the advisers/football people in and around Aston Villa Football club that a general consensus of opinion of Steve Bruce does not find its way to the hierarchy.

 

Well we don't know it hasn't, there is more than one way to skin a cat, just ask the Hull owners......

[TRO]

7 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

I'd say it also makes no sense that professional footballers who have been coached since the age of around 5 years old, aren't able to follow basic instructions if their manager is asking them and criticising them in the press after games. 

Like said above, we're not looking at complex tactical decisions. Stop hoofing the ball, play further up the pitch. If these players are behind the manager and can't follow simple instructions then I'm amazed they've reached the level they have. 

Lansbury and Hourihane seemed to be able to play differently just weeks before being signed by Bruce. Yet now they can't. That seems strange to me. 

and just about every villa fan I would imagine........thinks its strange.

I think its just as strange to find seasoned professionals unable to carry out the basics......coaches, coach that should not include the basics.....its a given.

If a player hasn't got the basics, they shouldn't be at the football club.

Edited May 2, 2017 by TRO

[mykeyb]

Just now, TRO said:

and just about every villa fan I would imagine........thinks its strange.

I think its just as strange to find seasoned professionals unable to carry out the basics......coaches, coach that does not include the basics.....its a given.

If a player hasn't got the basics, they shouldn't be at the football club.

Quite agree, I would argue that should be extended to the management also.....