Steve Bruce

[Stevo985]

5 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

 

anyway this irrelevant he won't be sacked and that us the correct decision right now

This is what it comes down to.

We can all have our opinions, but there is absolutely no chance that Bruce is getting the sack before next season.

[terrytini]

I didn't understand the 'variables' bit GH but I share the analysis in your opening paragraphs.

Im content with Bruce. He did a great job turning the slump around, and we all know inherited a mess. I'm confident he will have us challenging. 

But for me he has got off lightly with many fans for that slump - which,after all, cost us promotion - ( as of where we were when it started, I know there were earlier issues - ) and he continues to exhibit some of the failings which caused it.

We lost two good players in Jedi and Kodak, fair enough. But we should've got something notwithstanding.

GH rightly, IMO talks about excessive caution (timidness almost). Still happens. 

Nowt to do with being pretty, nor possession, nor entertaining. But definitely over cautious and defensive.

As such he has my qualified support but will be watching intently the first couple of games - and the last few of this year - to see whether we start throwing our weight around a bit more.

[The Fun Factory]

On 12/04/2017 at 09:52, Demitri_C said:

My impression is he will get us promoted but at best make us relegation survivors each season

Job done then. Bruce has stage one of the project to get through- promotion and stability. Looking like a possible Europa side will take millions more and a better manager. Its  a long way off. 

[Stevo985]

11 hours ago, The Fun Factory said:

Job done then. Bruce has stage one of the project to get through- promotion and stability. Looking like a possible Europa side will take millions more and a better manager. Its  a long way off. 

This.

If anyone's problem with Bruce is he won't get us into Europe or win us the Premier League then I'm totally on board.

But that problem should rear it's head in a couple of seasons when we're back in the prem, which I fully believe Bruce will achieve.

 

We need to stop this approach of thinking our next manager is going to be in charge for 10 years. Football doesn't work like that any more.

[Guest av1]

Bruce, a Manager that has won 4 promotions from this division, will probably start next season with the strongest squad he has ever managed in this division.

Now everyone is entitled to their opinions of course, but i really have got no idea how anyone can arrive at the conclusion that 'we have no chance of promotion under Bruce' 

Bruce has a history of success in this league with squads much weaker than the one that will start the 17/18 season. Replacing him now would be madness imo.

[Eastie]

6 minutes ago, av1 said:

Bruce, a Manager that has won 4 promotions from this division, will probably start next season with the strongest squad he has ever managed in this division.

Now everyone is entitled to their opinions of course, but i really have got no idea how anyone can arrive at the conclusion that 'we have no chance of promotion under Bruce' 

Bruce has a history of success in this league with squads much weaker than the one that will start the 17/18 season. Replacing him now would be madness imo.

100% bang on !!!

[theboyangel]

2 minutes ago, Eastie said:

100% bang on !!!

Some will not concur

(way too high percentage for Bruce too )

Edited April 14, 2017 by theboyangel

[Eastie]

2 minutes ago, theboyangel said:

Some will not concur

(way too high percentage for Bruce too )

You are right - let's call it 99.9%

[briny_ear]

21 hours ago, terrytini said:

But for me he has got off lightly with many fans for that slump - which,after all, cost us promotion 

Can you explain a bit more about how the "slump" "cost us promotion"?

We have been way off the promotion places all season.

 

[TRO]

On 13/04/2017 at 15:55, terrytini said:

But for me he has got off lightly with many fans for that slump - which,after all, cost us promotion - ( as of where we were when it started, I know there were earlier issues - ) and he continues to exhibit some of the failings which caused it.

I don't quite see it the same way,Terry and I think its the reason why so many fans have refrained from calling him out.

I see that the spectacle of the football is poor,just the same as you, but I don't see the reason for it, quite the same as you.

My take on it is this.....

The "slump" you refer to,was partially inevitable.....He had applied a temporary fix after RDM, but that fix, was extremely Brittle,(naturally, I would say) as he was limping metaphorically speaking to the transfer window and losing his 2 most influential players, it was just a "Bridge too far" .....We went in to a tailspin that mirrored where we had just come from......IT SIMPLY WASN'T FIXED.....hence my reluctance to see it as a slump.

I personally would refer to a slump after a period of normal service......we were some distance from Normal service, this was a club who was just coming through a 7 year "war zone" Where just about everything about the place was broken.

To some of us at that stage it was so bad, we was starting to wonder, if anyone can find a remedy.

I prefer to think that that period where SB secured those valuable points to stave off relegation.....was a minor miracle as opposed to an expected turnaround.

This team was never going to go up this season, this team was never going to reverse that severe demise, that quickly.I think it was naive to think otherwise.....However its ok to dream, but then you can't scold a man for trying his best, when the DREAM evaporates.....you just have to take it as wishful thinking as opposed to his failure.

This is not a post that resembles a get out of jail card, but it is a possible explanation why the natives , refrained from the warpath....they took a liberal view.

I think Steve Bruce is the right manager for us now, but I will refuse to jump on him at every set back.....Whether he is the right manager for the future, I think that depends on a number of factors one of which is, where he takes us....I do not subscribe to the foregone conclusion, he has a short shelf life, I think it will be decided by merit.

I do understand those fans that do not favour him, but to be fair there is not a manager alive that will please everyone.....and some that are against him ,always was, so it doesn't matter what he does for them.

I will also say this those fans that recognise that these jobs are not 5 minute fixes (or should i say not ALL things can be fixed immediately and  the rectification has to be incremental) are generally happy with the turn around in results and like me are hoping for a more convincing style of football to look forward to.

all in due course......UTV

Ps IMO this team is not ready to go up.....it might be a god send that we haven't

[TRO]

On 4/12/2017 at 23:49, Grasshopper said:

yes, they are all doing a good job at their disposals and play different football to Bruce

maybe, they have had more time to do it.?

[srsmithusa]

3 hours ago, TRO said:

I don't quite see it the same way,Terry and I think its the reason why so many fans have refrained from calling him out.

I see that the spectacle of the football is poor,just the same as you, but I don't see the reason for it, quite the same as you.

My take on it is this.....

The "slump" you refer was partially inevitable.....He had applied a temporary fix after RDM, but that fix, was extremely Brittle,(naturally, I would say) as he was limping metaphorically speaking to the transfer window and losing his 2 most influential players, it was just a "Bridge too far" .....We went in to a tailspin that mirrored where we had just come from......IT SIMPLY WASN'T FIXED.....hence my reluctance to see it as a slump.

I personally would refer to a slump after a period of normal service......we were some distance from Normal service, this was a club who was just coming through a 7 year "war zone" Where just about everything about the place was broken.

To some of us at that stage it was so bad, we was starting to wonder, if anyone can find a remedy.

I prefer to think that that period where SB secured those valuable points to stave off relegation.....was a minor miracle as opposed to an expected turnaround.

This team was never going to go up this season, this team was never going to reverse that severe demise, that quickly.I think it was naive to think otherwise.....However its ok to dream, but then you can't scold a man for trying his best, when the DREAM evaporates.....you just have to take it as wishful thinking as opposed to his failure.

This is not a post that resembles a get out of jail card, but it is a possible explanation why the natives , refrained from the warpath.

I think Steve Bruce is the right manager for us now, but I will refuse to jump on him at every set back.....Whether he is the right manager for the future, I think that depends on a number of factors one of which is, where he takes us....I do not subscribe to the foregone conclusion, he has a short shelf life, I think it will be decided by merit.

I do understand those fans that do not favour him, but to be fair there is not a manager alive that will please everyone.....and some that are against him ,always was, so it doesn't matter what he does for them.

I will also say this those fans that recognise that these jobs are not 5 minute fixes (or should i say not ALL things can be fixed immediately and  the rectification has to be incremental) are generally happy with the turn around in results and like me are hoping for a more convincing style of football to look forward to.

all in due course......UTV

Ps IMO this team is not ready to go up.....it might be a god send that we haven't

TRO, reasonably stated but I disagree on a couple of premises.  I do not think it was naive to think we had a real chance of going up this season (new owner, new manager, huge investment in playing staff, quite effective at shipping a whole bunch of the poor performers). I think if you took a pulse of the fans pre-season and read the comments from the club at the time, it was the consensus goal.  Not that it would be easy or a cake walk.  Not without those saying it was unrealistic.  But certainly the vast majority of club comments were clear that it was the goal and that it was attainable.  I think it became unrealistic in the first 11 matches and impossible in January & February. Some portion of the blame for that lies with Bruce, but clearly not all.  My view is that the culture needed to change.  Neither RDM, nor Bruce did enough to change the culture before January (IMO).

My other real complaint is the whole notion that it's a "God send" we won't go up idea.  Importantly, you're not the only one to express that idea.  I understand the fear of failing miserably in the PL and coming right back down.  But there's no way staying in the championship is a good thing for the club overall.  The loss of revenue, the loss of exposure abroad, loss of kit sales and other trinkets even.  Perhaps worse than that...we will lose mildly supportive fans all over the world that can't see or follow matches.  We will lose opportunities to recruit and excite new fans.  The losses to the club overall are huge and in some ways represent opportunities that can never be recovered  (another reason the club was set on the goal of a one year bounce back, I'm sure).  As a devoted fan for many years from the USA, it takes real effort on my part to stay a fan with rare opportunities to watch the team.  I've gotten so desperate for football that I have started watching MLS.  It's nowhere near the quality, but it's entertaining.  It's readily available. If I watch enough, I'll start to identify with (or hate) certain players.  If I start to identify with certain players, I may get more interested in them than in Jack (or Jedi or whoever).   That's not going to happen to me, but it will happen to some and the loss of fans is an opportunity cost that cannot be recovered.  In sum, I understand your point.  I even understand looking solely from a long-term football success frame of reference, it may hold some truth.  (although it's all fortune telling which I've found to be pretty unreliable.) But the opportunity cost alone of staying in the championship another season is immeasurable.

It needs to stay a bitter disappointment, not a silver lining.

[sheepyvillian]

On 13/04/2017 at 12:47, Stevo985 said:

This is what it comes down to.

We can all have our opinions, but there is absolutely no chance that Bruce is getting the sack before next season.

You're really in the know ,aren't you ?

[TRO]

4 hours ago, srsmithusa said:

TRO, reasonably stated but I disagree on a couple of premises.  I do not think it was naive to think we had a real chance of going up this season (new owner, new manager, huge investment in playing staff, quite effective at shipping a whole bunch of the poor performers). I think if you took a pulse of the fans pre-season and read the comments from the club at the time, it was the consensus goal.  Not that it would be easy or a cake walk.  Not without those saying it was unrealistic.  But certainly the vast majority of club comments were clear that it was the goal and that it was attainable.  I think it became unrealistic in the first 11 matches and impossible in January & February. Some portion of the blame for that lies with Bruce, but clearly not all.  My view is that the culture needed to change.  Neither RDM, nor Bruce did enough to change the culture before January (IMO).

My other real complaint is the whole notion that it's a "God send" we won't go up idea.  Importantly, you're not the only one to express that idea.  I understand the fear of failing miserably in the PL and coming right back down.  But there's no way staying in the championship is a good thing for the club overall.  The loss of revenue, the loss of exposure abroad, loss of kit sales and other trinkets even.  Perhaps worse than that...we will lose mildly supportive fans all over the world that can't see or follow matches.  We will lose opportunities to recruit and excite new fans.  The losses to the club overall are huge and in some ways represent opportunities that can never be recovered  (another reason the club was set on the goal of a one year bounce back, I'm sure).  As a devoted fan for many years from the USA, it takes real effort on my part to stay a fan with rare opportunities to watch the team.  I've gotten so desperate for football that I have started watching MLS.  It's nowhere near the quality, but it's entertaining.  It's readily available. If I watch enough, I'll start to identify with (or hate) certain players.  If I start to identify with certain players, I may get more interested in them than in Jack (or Jedi or whoever).   That's not going to happen to me, but it will happen to some and the loss of fans is an opportunity cost that cannot be recovered.  In sum, I understand your point.  I even understand looking solely from a long-term football success frame of reference, it may hold some truth.  (although it's all fortune telling which I've found to be pretty unreliable.) But the opportunity cost alone of staying in the championship another season is immeasurable.

It needs to stay a bitter disappointment, not a silver lining.

as you are probably expecting I disagree  with the overall sentiment, but like you with mine,agree with it in parts.

I understand your frustration of not being able to see the games and I have empathy with that.....and like you, I don't want to spend any unnecessary time down here in the Championship.

However,I am trying to be realistic......14 games in with 1 win, was too much to make up ( IMO)for a team that had already set a personal record of 3 wins all season in  the previous campaign and could have gone through the trap door again to division 1 until SB took over.

It may well be a bitter disappointment for many fans by not going up this season, particularly those fans that rely on the media to watch the games,but I suspect that feeling may well change in the fullness of time.

Everyone at the club is trying their best to get us up.

I guess ultimately, folk agree with that or dismiss it.

 

 

[Villan_of_oz]

41 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

You're really in the know ,aren't you ?

It doesn't have to be in the know, its basic common sense. There as been nothing to indicate he will be sacked.

Bar losing every game we have left, which I dont see happening. There is really no reason to sack him. 

I guess you would have to be equally 'in the know' to say he will be sacked. 

[Demitri_C]

1 hour ago, sheepyvillian said:

You're really in the know ,aren't you ?

He isn't but he stating the obvious

[sheepyvillian]

1 hour ago, Demitri_C said:

He isn't but he stating the obvious

You don't say ?

[terrytini]

TRO I don't disagree with 90 % of your Post (s) . For example I never thought promotion a realistic thing this season.

And I'm not interested in pretty football. And there was much to be done. And, and, and !! ....much agreement.

There is one significant thing you don't really address though, and often sort of skip....which was in part what Grasshopper was saying, and what I've said constantly.

It is that his  chosen players and tactics had a bearing on that run ( just as they had a bearing on what came before and after).

For me the real debate isn't whether he's a good bloke, or his track record ( good and bad), nor what level of prettiness or entertainment his football offers. 

It id simply that he IS a cautious Manager. For better or worse. He will play fewer flair players and more grafters. For better or worse. He told Hogan the "main reason he bought him was his running and work rate" and that sums him up. For better or worse. He bought Lansbury who regularly got beyond the forwards at Forest, and doesn't now. For better or worse.

I could list lots of examples. Ipswich is my preferred example as representing this. He picked cautiously and only picked positively after an hour. He cost us !! He did !

(I don't hold it against him, everyone makes mistakes, but I do think it was down to him. One example.)

In other words I'm not saying definitively those traits are inherently bad. But they ARE there.

And in January he reacted to the loss of Kodja and Jedi in line with those traits.

Doesn't  mean I hate him, or he's mad, or clueless, or that his ideas couldn't ever have worked.  

Its just he went the way he WOULD go.

And IMO it cost us. Just like it may reward us in the future of course.

But it's my view that with THIS Club, now, with the Docs backing, he needs to add some bravado to his methods, some risk, some brash assertiveness.

If he did, if he could make that incremental adjustment ( but a big leap for him) I think everything else would click aswell.

I hope it's clear coz it's sometimes frustrating how many times this view gets lost in translation !!!

 

Edited April 14, 2017 by terrytini

[terrytini]

10 hours ago, briny_ear said:

Can you explain a bit more about how the "slump" "cost us promotion"?

We have been way off the promotion places all season.

 

I'll try my best. 

Promotion was never realistic from the outset.

Less so after RDM.

But BECAME a possibility ( due to Bruce's first good run ) and was a possibility ( as Bruce himself has said) had we just had a poor run, or an average run, in Jan/Feb.

But not after that awful run.

Hopefully that does it ? 

Edited April 14, 2017 by terrytini

[briny_ear]

50 minutes ago, terrytini said:

I'll try my best. 

Promotion was never realistic from the outset.

Less so after RDM.

But BECAME a possibility ( due to Bruce's first good run ) and was a possibility ( as Bruce himself has said) had we just had a poor run, or an average run, in Jan/Feb.

But not after that awful run.

Hopefully that does it ? 

I think maybe you mean "qualifying for the playoffs" - NOT getting a promotion place (i.e. 1st or 2nd), which has been in reality out of reach all season. Even after Bruce's first good run, making the playoffs was always an extreme long shot.

If that is an accurate reflection of the position you are discussing, the phrase "cost us promotion" should surely be withdrawn?