Steve Bruce

[Grasshopper]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

I have to say GH......there is a definite pattern to all those nominations 2& 3

yes, they are all doing a good job at their disposals and play different football to Bruce

[TRO]

36 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

Now now Tro, you know thats a weak contra.

RDM was as clueless as TS was

That's in hindsight of course.

RDM's Cv was not the worst I have ever seen.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

yes, they are all doing a good job at their disposals and play different football to Bruce

For now.

[Grasshopper]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

That's in hindsight of course.

RDM's Cv was not the worst I have ever seen.

You compared the reign of RDM

Not the reason he was employed

[Grasshopper]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

For now.

Well the now is what it is - The now.

What you are portraying is an assuption of what may happen.

The now caries more substance

 

My oh my TV must be really shit tonight when 2 boring old farts like us are argueing the toss about something we have no influence on.

How sad are we eh?

Edited April 12, 2017 by Grasshopper

[LakotaDakota]

We have won more games under Bruce than we managed for the entire past 2 seasons combined and people are complaining it's a bit boring? Was it any better getting shat on every other week and having the odd good/unexpected win thrown in here & there for the past few years?

In all honesty i through he had completely lost it in Jan/Feb but he managed to turn things around and has shown enough since then to think that we should be fine next season.

We had pretty much an entire new team/Squad mostly signed late on in August, changed managers a couple of months later, Lost our only real goalscorer for a month & replaced half the team again in Jan. Since then we have barely conceeded a goal despite playing a keeper that everyone thinks, or at least thought was absolutely shite and won 8 of 10 games along the way. This group of players is actually starting to become a team.

Full pre-season and a couple of squad additions and we'll be fine. The crap coming down from the prem this year will be no real cause for concern, Sunderland have one player, he will be gone, Boro have players even we deemed to be too crap and Swansea will have their 3 or 4 good players snapped up quickly

Edited April 12, 2017 by LakotaDakota

[TRO]

1 minute ago, Grasshopper said:

Well the now is what it is - The now.

What you are portraying is an assuption of what may happen.

The now caries more substance

 

My oh my TV must be really shit tonight when 2 boring old farts like us are argueing the toss about something we have no influence on

Hahaha......so when Alex Ferguson was hanging on in his early days and the ...."The Now" was not holding much water.

its good fortune for him that the directors had sufficient foresight to give him more time.....thats what vision does.

I guess Mark Robins Goal, was a big turning point too.

[Grasshopper]

9 minutes ago, TRO said:

Hahaha......so when Alex Ferguson was hanging on in his early days and the ...."The Now" was not holding much water.

its good fortune for him that the directors had sufficient foresight to give him more time.....thats what vision does.

I guess Mark Robins Goal, was a big turning point too.

???????????

strange you pick a manager who didnt play shit football

You need some horlicks my friend

I'm up for a cocoa

Edited April 12, 2017 by Grasshopper

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, LakotaDakota said:

We have won more games under Bruce than we managed for the entire past 2 seasons combined and people are complaining it's a bit boring? Was it any better getting shat on every other week and having the odd good/unexpected win thrown in here & there for the past few years?

In all honesty i through he had completely lost it in Jan/Feb but he managed to turn things around and has shown enough since then to think that we should be fine next season.

We had pretty much an entire new team/Squad mostly signed late on in August, changed managers a couple of months later, Lost our only real goalscorer for a month & replaced half the team again in Jan. Since then we have barely conceeded a goal despite playing a keeper that everyone thinks, or at least thought was absolutely shite and won 8 of 10 games along the way. This group of players is actually starting to become a team.

Full pre-season and a couple of squad additions and we'll be fine. The crap coming down from the prem this year will be no real cause for concern, Sunderland have one player, he will be gone, Boro have players even we deemed to be too crap and Swansea will have their 3 or 4 good players snapped up quickly

That reversal of fortune during Dec/Jan would have sunk most managers. really impressed how he handled it.

Mark made the point in one of his earlier posts and a real significant one IMO

[Grasshopper]

Just now, TRO said:

That reversal of fortune during Dec/Jan would have sunk most managers. really impressed how he handled it.

Mark made the point in one of his earlier posts and a real significant one IMO

you obviously didnt see the "Slurring - I'm broken - hmmm Valium" postmatch interview then

[TRO]

18 hours ago, Grasshopper said:

???????????

strange you pick a manager who didnt play shit football

You need some horlicks my friend

I'm up for a cocoa

But it wasn't that great when he was under the cosh for his job.....it all depends what part of his career you wish to talk about.....like "The Now"

good night GH

Edited April 13, 2017 by TRO

[Mjvilla]

1 hour ago, sheepyvillian said:

Doesn't sound like you don't give a shit .

This makes little sense. Read what I said 'so long as we win, I don't give a shit'. Meaning winning is the be all and end all. Whereas you seem to happy with 1 win in 11 as long as we are playing good stuff.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

@TRO @Grasshopper get a room!

[Mjvilla]

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

@TRO @Grasshopper get a room!

You are well jel. 

[Demitri_C]

Can't believe anyone is even suggesting the sack look at what has appended at blose.

anyway this irrelevant he won't be sacked and that us the correct decision right now

[Godders]

This seems to be a very emotive point at the moment so I've really given some effort to try and see things from Sheepy's and GH's point of view.

The crux of the argument, as I see it, is that since the most successful teams in any league are generally the ones that play a possession, free flowing type of game (I'll call it possession based), and since Bruce doesn't seem capable of getting us playing like this, then we're not going to be successful under Bruce in this league and he should go now, replaced by someone who can get us playing this way.

Logically though, I can't see this as a reasonable argument. Bruce has already gotten 2 teams promoted from this league. Now to do so, based on the Bruce out arguments premises as I've read them, he would have had to have got them playing a possession based game. Given this, it really suggests the 2nd premise (that he can't get us playing a possession based game) isn't correct given he's working with some of the better players in this league with us. There is nothing reasonable to suggest that he could do it with SHA and Hull, but not with us.

Or, he didn't get them playing possession football.  He still got them promoted though, which means the 1st premise would be incorrect since Bruce seems to have been successful with teams without playing a possession based game.

Either way, the Bruce out argument because of the style of play does not hold much water for me.

For it to do so, we'd need to make an assumption that he has lost his ability as a manager to see the same level of success as before (unlikely imo as he went up with Hull last season), or he's delibarately sabotaging us (which I'm dismissing on the grounds of that suggestion being ludicrous). 

There may well still be merit to a Bruce out argument, and I'll be interested in seeing it. But arguing for Bruce out now because we're not playing a possession based game is  illogical and unreasonable for the reasons I've given above.

 

[sheepyvillian]

9 hours ago, Mjvilla said:

This makes little sense. Read what I said 'so long as we win, I don't give a shit'. Meaning winning is the be all and end all. Whereas you seem to happy with 1 win in 11 as long as we are playing good stuff.

As I've said previously, one doesn't negate the other .

[skarroki]

I think we all need to accept that some football fans like to hate everything, and illogically attack every aspect of the club they "support" whenever anything resembling a crack appears.

I've been to Reading a couple of times this season and the fans have been on Jaap Stam's back at times. They think the possession football is boring and slow and invites pressure. They don't pay to watch the team play sideways and backwards passes, same as what a lot of fans complained about at villa before. 

Unless we turn into Bayern Munich and start dominating Europe i doubt some will like Bruce. And even then they'll be excuses to get rid of him. Who would have thought 10 years ago that city fans would be pissed off at consistent top for finishes and champions league runs. 

[TRO]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.....Fans will have their own views as to what they want to see as a spectacle and react accordingly to going to  the game or not.

None of us by what we say, will change that.

After all "variety is the spice of life"

 

Edited April 13, 2017 by TRO

[Grasshopper]

@Godders

Great that you have considered Sheepy's & my points of view. Respect.

4 hours ago, Godders said:

This seems to be a very emotive point at the moment so I've really given some effort to try and see things from Sheepy's and GH's point of view.

The crux of the argument, as I see it, is that since the most successful teams in any league are generally the ones that play a possession, free flowing type of game (I'll call it possession based),

Firstly I would like to distance myself from the "possesion is the be all & end all" point of view.

We saw under MON the ceiling of Counter-attacking play, however, we are in the CH not PL. We dont even play that style. We sit back and have relied on a bit of Kodjia magic, a Grealish-enduced Penalty, a worldy from him and a number of set piece goals. This is, for me, clearly a sign of playing like an underdog/inferior team.

I think we would be more effective playing to the strengths of the players we had when SB took over and the subsequent signings made at various points in the JanWin and since.

Fact - the rot needed stopping in Oct.

Bruce did that, with a bit of luck. (a number of those games we only deserved points for endevour and not actual play). But credit where credits due. I'd also like to add once appointed, I was 100% behind giving him a chance and also understood fully the decision to appoint him.

IMHO - His decisions, amongst others, Gaby, GK, Selections and a lack of commitment to expand our play resulted in a shamefull run which, for me negated his previous efforts in continuing an effort to get us to the playoffs and a shot at promotion.

N.B.1 - Kodjia's absence can not be used as the only excuse, as that was a known fact that could have been dealt with.

N.B.2 - At the time period of that good run through to the bad run (around 4 months) we would have been no match for a playoff duel with the likes of Hudds, Leeds, Reading, SheffW or Fulham. However, May would have meant 8 months time and a JanWin to get us up to the level of the above mentioned, IMHO, that was do-able.

But he failed.

With the players available before, during and after the JanWin, SB could have improved our play, indeed at various points ie Brighton, both Leeds games, Preston and Hudds, we did play "dominant" (def:?) football, just not enough of it over a full 90 mins enabling us to get wins. In fact, either reverting to or starting off with "negative" (def:?) football was more the reason we didnt win those games than the the "dominant" football was. So a more expansive style of football was/is possible (even with Gardwood). Imho, his design was not to try/persist with that way.

I am of the opinion that on the evidence (play and results) that bruce has shown we will not gain AUTOMATIC promotion next season and I'm very disappointed that the opportunity this season wasnt seized. Playoffs maybe, But with the teams in this league next season, do we really want to take that risk? How insufficient will we be as a team if we dont finish in the the top 2?

Now people will quote/state

( 11 games RDM - 30 games SB - 5 games to go)

30 games Points per game ratio over a full season would already have us in a playoff position. (5 games to go - higher/same/lower PPG ratio still possible)

That gives us 6 variables

1 Bruce achieves a better pts per game ration for the missing RDM reign games

2 Bruce achieves his PPG ratio for the RDM reign games

3 Bruce achieves a lower PPG ratio for the RDM reign games

For these 3 variables to kick in (effective to a + or - ) the rest of the season (Bruce's reign matches) must be 

4 The same PPG ratio over SB's reign games

5 A higher PPG ratio over SB's reign games

6 A lower PPG ratio over SB's reign games

(not forgetting the remaining 5 games results - as of now unknown)

Now who can possibly forsee ANY of those 6 variables? or which combination of variables?

So here is the point

Does one believe in variable 1 & 5 = garanteed 1st/2nd?

or

Variable 3 & 6? not even playoffs

or

any other variable? resulting with anything between Top 2 & Bottom 2

I believe that any of those variables are a possibility, so I believe that keeping him and the risk of him 3 & 6-ing it to 1 & 5-ing it, is too great. Therefore I believe we should go for a manager capable of moulding a more expansive team and use the now to give him the maximum possible time to achieve automatic promotion.

Not forgetting, the risk, stick or twist works both ways. Either one can go bust. Imho, I'd rather twist.

Hopefully I have explained my point of view in an understandable and appropriate manner

Edited April 13, 2017 by Grasshopper