Steve Bruce

[sne]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

Its a good point....good football is in the eye of the beholder.......some fans are turned on by watching good defensive work.....each to their own.

Its kinda tangible v intangible.

I'll stick to the tangible bit for now...... 6 wins.

As opposed to in January when it was very much the other way round 

[TRO]

17 minutes ago, NottingVilla said:

Winning with 30% possession at home is not 'winning' football its 'getting lucky and on the edge of being found out football'. Go back a few months and we was playing this 'winning' football then lost 7 out of 8 games. Even by our recent years of highly shite standards, thats a silly amount of matches to lose.

Manchester United play droll but winning football. We play droll but getting lucky at the football.

If this is what you want then fine, but don't expect automatic next season. Expect play-offs at best.

Its not lucky football.....its effective football.

Its like any style.....No team is going to stand by and allow you to win match after match, teams will be watching us.....we are top of the form league, that will not go unnoticed.

Its not so much that the STYLE is not sustainable.....other teams will be planning to undo us.

[sheepyvillian]

1 hour ago, markavfc40 said:

I don't think there is any issue with you wanting us to play better football mate. I think on top of good results that would be the icing on the cake.

The problem I have with it is that I don't think you can expect it now.

I got to be honest I don't really know what style of play Bruce favours. I haven't really taken that much notice of his career or watched his sides that closely even when they have played against us. If he is true to his words though then I know he has said he favours 4-4-2 or at least a variation on it that allows him to play two up top.

He hasn't therefore had much chance to play his ideal formation. He came in and had to cut his cloth to suit. He had to find a system to get the best out of what he inherited and initially he went 4-3-3 and got results. In January we then lost Kodjia, Gestede was sold, McCormack didn't want to know and RHM got ideas above his station. That left us with Gabby. We also saw another big over haul of the squad and it unfortunately took a number of weeks for us to get close to clicking. As part of that over haul we signed Hogan with the intention it seems to play Bruce's favoured 2 up top but he quickly got injured and we were again left with one fit forward.

Basically I don't think we are playing the way Bruce wants us to play. Given what he has said even after we have been winning then he wants us to keep the ball better. He also wants to play two up top but hasn't really had chance to bed in that formation.

I am also not so sure you ever really see how a manager would ideally like to play when he comes in part way through a season without a pre season. Those that insist on playing a certain way regardless of what they inherit will often struggle. Just look at Zola as an example trying to get players to play in a style they simply aren't used to. I notice last few games he has gone mega defensive to grind out results.

For now I would try to just be happy that we are winning. The good football can hopefully come further down the line. Whatever way you cut the cake though winning football regardless of style of play is a million times better than the in the main losing, dour crap we had been served up over the previous handful of years.

I all for brevity too. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by sheepyvillian
Spelling

[TRO]

16 hours ago, sne said:

As opposed to in January when it was very much the other way round 

I take your point, but there are good valid reasons for our difficulties during that period......you either accept them or you don't.

what kep't my pecker up, was that I was sure we would come through it, with the new lads settling in and getting used to each other.

There is nothing wrong with critique.....I just think the critique has come in too early when we are still work in progress.

as I have said earlier.....Its everyones right  to say what they like.....but it can be a pretty miserable existence, keep barking up the same tree and not accepting the wins when they come as a measure of pleasure.....I'm a poet and I know it.

UTV

Edited April 4, 2017 by TRO

[dont_do_it_doug.]

1 minute ago, sne said:

As opposed to in January when it was very much the other way round 

You've got me now...

Possession stats for Aston Villa

vs Cardiff (0-1) 62.5%

vs Wolves (0-1) - 56.2%

vs Preston (2-2) - 56.0%

vs Brentford (0-3) - 36.6%

vs Forest (1-2) - 29.4 %

vs Ipswich (0-1) - 51.8%

vs Barnsley (1-3) - 57.4%

vs Newcastle (0-2) - 45.3%

So with a couple of notable exceptions, one of which is the Forest game which in retrospect we were a little unlucky to lose, perhaps possession isn't that important after all?

[sne]

4 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

You've got me now...

Possession stats for Aston Villa

vs Cardiff (0-1) 62.5%

vs Wolves (0-1) - 56.2%

vs Preston (2-2) - 56.0%

vs Brentford (0-3) - 36.6%

vs Forest (1-2) - 29.4 %

vs Ipswich (0-1) - 51.8%

vs Barnsley (1-3) - 57.4%

vs Newcastle (0-2) - 45.3%

So with a couple of notable exceptions, one of which is the Forest game which in retrospect we were a little unlucky to lose, perhaps possession isn't that important after all?

It's obviously what you do with the ball when in possession, and how much control you have over what's happening when not in possession. 

as we are no longer on the telly it's hard for me to say how much control we are having during the games nowadays, but when you have as little possession as 30% I'd say you are pushing it a bit.

And I'm sure Bruce agrees with this and will do all he can to improve on it.

Edited April 3, 2017 by sne

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

You've got me now...

Possession stats for Aston Villa

vs Cardiff (0-1) 62.5%

vs Wolves (0-1) - 56.2%

vs Preston (2-2) - 56.0%

vs Brentford (0-3) - 36.6%

vs Forest (1-2) - 29.4 %

vs Ipswich (0-1) - 51.8%

vs Barnsley (1-3) - 57.4%

vs Newcastle (0-2) - 45.3%

So with a couple of notable exceptions, one of which is the Forest game which in retrospect we were a little unlucky to lose, perhaps possession isn't that important after all?

For someone that is not that opposed to the significance of possession as my posts suggest......(However I do think a lot is to do with our stage of development)

That is really,really interesting.

[TRO]

who was it who said? " Stats are for tw*ts"

 

 

Oh! me I think

ps and those that Dave submitted, go a log way to highlight it.

Edited April 3, 2017 by TRO

[mikeyp102]

35 minutes ago, NottingVilla said:

Winning with 30% possession at home is not 'winning' football its 'getting lucky and on the edge of being found out football'. Go back a few months and we was playing this 'winning' football then lost 7 out of 8 games. Even by our recent years of highly shite standards, thats a silly amount of matches to lose.

Manchester United play droll but winning football. We play droll but getting lucky at the football.

If this is what you want then fine, but don't expect automatic next season. Expect play-offs at best.

Did you see the game Saturday? There is no way that was a lucky result. Norwich never looked like winning.  

[dont_do_it_doug.]

9 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

You've got me now...

Possession stats for Aston Villa

vs Cardiff (0-1) 62.5%

vs Wolves (0-1) - 56.2%

vs Preston (2-2) - 56.0%

vs Brentford (0-3) - 36.6%

vs Forest (1-2) - 29.4 %

vs Ipswich (0-1) - 51.8%

vs Barnsley (1-3) - 57.4%

vs Newcastle (0-2) - 45.3%

So with a couple of notable exceptions, one of which is the Forest game which in retrospect we were a little unlucky to lose, perhaps possession isn't that important after all?

Now our winning run;

vs Derby (1-0) - 29.0% 

vs Bristol (2-0) - 51.2%

vs Rotherham (2-0) - 45.1%

vs Huddersfield (0-1) - 44.2%

vs Wednesday (2-0) - 43.8%

vs Wigan (2-0) - 44.2%

vs Norwich (2-0) - 31.0%

.............................................

Losing run average - 49.4%

Winning run average - 41.2%

People want to talk about the 'possession stats' well there you have it. Game set and match - We're better when we see less of the ball. 

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Now our winning run;

vs Derby (1-0) - 29.0% 

vs Bristol (2-0) - 51.2%

vs Rotherham (2-0) - 45.1%

vs Huddersfield (0-1) - 44.2%

vs Wednesday (2-0) - 43.8%

vs Wigan (2-0) - 44.2%

vs Norwich (2-0) - 31.0%

.............................................

Losing run average - 49.4%

Winning run average - 41.2%

People want to talk about the 'possession stats' well there you have it. Game set and match - We're better when we see less of the ball. 

Its a bloomin' good job I never took a bet on that.....amazing.

just goes to show.....its what you do with it, when you have it.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

7 minutes ago, sne said:

It's obviously what you do with the ball when in possession, and how much control you have over what's happening when not in possession. 

as we are no longer on the telly it's hard for me to say how much control we are having during the games nowadays, but when you have as little possession as 30% I'd say you are pushing it a bit.

And I'm sure Bruce agrees with this and will do all he can to improve on it.

Possibly, I think you have to watch the game to know for sure. Norwich created very little on Saturday and despite being poor for large swathes of the game we could have had 3/4. I agree with Bruce's assessment that we can (and have) played better but that the result is king. 

Ultimately, as everyone is banging on about possession I thought it worth a look. I was surprised myself but there you have it. Agree with your opening line 100%, we need to control games better. Hopefully this will come with time. 

[NottingVilla]

Championship table end of 2014/2015:

Of the top 10 teams. Only 2 out of the top 10 were not also in the top 10 for possession. Blackburn and Birmingham who were 9th and 10th in the league but were 14th and 24th in possession respectively. SO THE TOP 8 IN THE LEAGUE WE'RE ALSO TOP 8 IN POSSESSION. But possession doesn't matter, right? 

https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/4312/Stages/9156/TeamStatistics/England-Championship-2014-2015

https://www.fulhamfc.com/first-team/2014_2015/league/table

FACTAMUNDO, DUDES!

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by NottingVilla

[NottingVilla]

Threads gone quiet, hmmm.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

7 minutes ago, NottingVilla said:

Championship table end of 2014/2015:

Of the top 10 teams. Only 2 out of the top 10 were not also in the top 10 for possession. Blackburn and Birmingham who were 9th and 10th in the league but were 14th and 24th in possession respectively. SO THE TOP 8 IN THE LEAGUE WE'RE ALSO TOP 8 IN POSSESSION. But possession doesn't matter, right? 

https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/4312/Stages/9156/TeamStatistics/England-Championship-2014-2015

https://www.fulhamfc.com/first-team/2014_2015/league/table

FACTAMUNDO, DUDES!

 

Why did you pick 14/15, may I ask? 

In season 15/16 Steve Bruce's Hull were 3rd for possession, with 52.8%. For whatever it's worth. 

[TB]

 

 

 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

6 minutes ago, NottingVilla said:

Threads gone quiet, hmmm.

Ok let's look at 15/16

Burnley, who stormed the league, were 18th in the possession stat table with 48.2%

Brentford were 2nd in possession stats, they finished 9th.

Huddersfield were 4th, they finished 19th in the real table. 

Fulham were 5th, they finished 20th so far as the record shows. 

Edit - and that's the real quiz.

Edited April 3, 2017 by dont_do_it_doug.

[NottingVilla]

2 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Ok let's look at 15/16

Burnley, who stormed the league, were 18th in the possession stat table with 48.2%

An anomaly like Leicester.

Very obvious correlation between winning/possession in The Championship.

Post the rest of the top 10 for 2015/2016 if you like. 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

I've never once said there was no correlation between possession and winning, only that it's not the only way to win football matches. I feel I have demonstrated that as best I can, do what you like with it 

[NottingVilla]

This season is even more damning....

Of the top 10 teams in the league, 9 are in the top 10 for possession also. 

So its undeniable we need to improve in that respect. 

However I would suspect Bruce knows this. I also suspect especially with him alluding to fitness issues before he came in that he is 'blagging' it at the moment. He/I know we aren't a good team, just making the best of what we've got. Which is a bit concerning for promotion next season if not spending $$$.