Steve Bruce

[omariqy]

55 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

I'm amazed you couldn't see that in evidence last season.

We won and lost as a team in my opinion.

Of course I know that but where is that team now? Terry and Snodgrass were great for the dressing room weren't they? Where are they now? It's this short termism that is the probably. When we inevitably fail under Bruce again we will be in a worse position with worse players. We don't learn, fans don't learn. Last year we found a winning formula, it didn't get us over the line. Pre-season - we start all over again and not we are experimenting with 3 at the back with none of the players to play that formation. It's this lack of cohesion and strategy which is why we are where we are. Short term decisions with limited thinking. We need to think bigger picture and builds something. There was no point having that team spirit last season because it isn't there this season. 

[TheStagMan]

3 hours ago, Rob182 said:

Hi guys, I've not read the thread for a few days so I don't know what's been discussed on this page or before, but I just want to say, remember when Bruce failed at that club he was at a few years ago?

I, for one, would like to discuss that in length, if anyone else thinks that'd be a fun use of our time?

i'm more interested in how he has failed twice at this club, but knock yourself out.

[PieFacE]

18 minutes ago, omariqy said:

Of course I know that but where is that team now? Terry and Snodgrass were great for the dressing room weren't they? Where are they now? It's this short termism that is the probably. When we inevitably fail under Bruce again we will be in a worse position with worse players. We don't learn, fans don't learn. Last year we found a winning formula, it didn't get us over the line. Pre-season - we start all over again and not we are experimenting with 3 at the back with none of the players to play that formation. It's this lack of cohesion and strategy which is why we are where we are. Short term decisions with limited thinking. We need to think bigger picture and builds something. There was no point having that team spirit last season because it isn't there this season. 

Agree with this. 

[markavfc40]

4 hours ago, omariqy said:

Of course I know that but where is that team now? Terry and Snodgrass were great for the dressing room weren't they? Where are they now? It's this short termism that is the probably. When we inevitably fail under Bruce again we will be in a worse position with worse players. We don't learn, fans don't learn........... There was no point having that team spirit last season because it isn't there this season. 

I doubt very much that is the case. I think one of the reasons Bruce brought in some strong characters was the fact they could influence others, show the way you have to apply yourself and the attitude you need to play for a big club with high expectations. The impact that Terry, Whelan, Snodgrass will have had won't have left the club now a couple of them have gone the whole idea would have been that new ethos would stay with the players/club long after they had left. You only have to look at Grealish to see how much he has been influenced by having those strong characters at the club and I have already noticed in pre season he is far more vocal. He won't be alone in having learned a great deal last season and he and others will carry that with them going forward.

You may see it has short termism but when Bruce came in this club stunk of a losers mentality and players struggling to handle the expectation that comes with playing for Aston Villa and it needed some big characters who could influence others to help sort it out and I am confident we we will continue to reap the benefits of that.

Edited July 30, 2018 by markavfc40

[Jareth]

 

[Rodders]

we've hardly had the pre-season to form alternative options. Until 10 days ago we were close to administration, how was a manager supposed to plan / chart a different course?

Of course it's going to be short termism for now ffs. I have no idea what other option would be reasonably possible at this current stage in proceedings. We can still play youngsters etc, and plan for something new next year once the new guys officially take over etc, and if they've changed manager mid-season that would presumably be with a specific plan in mind. At the moment, the new owners in waiting have had little time and the manager has been in limbo along with the players. 

Now we can mix old heads and young players again. Bruce may not succeed, I am ambivalent with regards his capacities in general, but it seems we are at least looking at creative options in terms of loans. Obviously, ideally we want to invest in our talent and develop a side, that is no doubt preferable plan A. But for where we are at this moment in time that's not going to happen, especially if our immediate aim is a tilt at promotion this year. 

We have youngsters with more experience, potentially a star player available from the off, Kodja not injured etc. We have a good chance of being around the play-off or even promotion spots. It's very difficult to tell as it's a competitive league with other good sides there, and we could still have a good go and fall short and it not be a proof of failure because, we and every other side, are not entitled to anything. 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Rodders

[bobzy]

34 minutes ago, omariqy said:

Of course I know that but where is that team now? Terry and Snodgrass were great for the dressing room weren't they? Where are they now? It's this short termism that is the probably. When we inevitably fail under Bruce again we will be in a worse position with worse players. We don't learn, fans don't learn. Last year we found a winning formula, it didn't get us over the line. Pre-season - we start all over again and not we are experimenting with 3 at the back with none of the players to play that formation. It's this lack of cohesion and strategy which is why we are where we are. Short term decisions with limited thinking. We need to think bigger picture and builds something. There was no point having that team spirit last season because it isn't there this season. 

I'm pretty pleased we're playing with a different formation in pre-season, personally.  It's this exact lack of a plan B which frustrated so many people last season.  Now we're actually working on something else, and... nope, wrong thing mate.  Don't bother.

Snodgrass and Terry were a massive part of helping us become a proper team again.  Why wouldn't you welcome them back?  It's hardly "OMG let's bring back Grabban and Onomah too plz".  If their wages will be too much for us, they won't be here.

Snodgrass was arguably our most influential player last season.  If he comes back on another loan, I'd be pretty chuffed with it.  Short term thinking?  Absolutely.  But then developing an entire team at Championship level and then replacing it all if we got promoted isn't ideal either.  There's a middle ground to be had.

[blandy]

1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said:

I'm amazed you couldn't see that in evidence last season.

We won and lost as a team in my opinion.

Yes, I agree with that. Thing is, though the team was made up in significant part by other teams players, not our players. That's (I think) what Omar is saying, and he's right. We should aim for a Villa team made of AVFC players, not Bournemouth, West Ham, Man Utd etc. If you're going to be spending 2 million quid on a player each year, better use it on homegrown or bought players than paying part of West Ham's wage bill..etc.

[omariqy]

28 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

I doubt very much that is the case. I think one of the reasons Bruce brought in some strong characters was the fact they could influence others, show the way you have to apply yourself and the attitude you need to play for a big club with high expectations. The impact that Terry, Whelan, Snodgrass will have had won't have left the club now a couple of them have gone the whole idea would have been that new ethos would stay with the players/club long after they had left. You only have to look Grealish to see how much he has been influenced by having those strong characters at the club and I have already noticed in pre season he is far more vocal. He won't be alone in having learned a great deal last season and he and others will carry that with them going forward.

You may see it has short termism but when Bruce came in this club stunk of a losers mentality and players struggling to handle the expectation that comes with playing for Aston Villa and it needed some big characters who could influence others to help sort it out and I am confident we we will continue to reap the benefits of that.

Then why did Bruce himself say Terry and Snodgrass just papered over the cracks? What exactly did he build then? 

[Hoof hearted]

If Jorge Mendes is involved I fully expect the doghead fans to pipe up about him being theirs and how dare we copy their tic-tacs from last season. words removed.

[omariqy]

19 minutes ago, bobzy said:

I'm pretty pleased we're playing with a different formation in pre-season, personally.  It's this exact lack of a plan B which frustrated so many people last season.  Now we're actually working on something else, and... nope, wrong thing mate.  Don't bother.

Snodgrass and Terry were a massive part of helping us become a proper team again.  Why wouldn't you welcome them back?  It's hardly "OMG let's bring back Grabban and Onomah too plz".  If their wages will be too much for us, they won't be here.

Snodgrass was arguably our most influential player last season.  If he comes back on another loan, I'd be pretty chuffed with it.  Short term thinking?  Absolutely.  But then developing an entire team at Championship level and then replacing it all if we got promoted isn't ideal either.  There's a middle ground to be had.

We tried 3-5-2 in pre-season last season and he used it barely for one half of the season. He will go back to his tried and trusted approach mark my words. My point is that he has no strategy or game plan. There is no cohesion in his thinking. We will be in the same position in a years time maybe even worse. People wanting to get the old band back together is why fans were sleepwalking to admin a few weeks ago. We are a championship club, parachute payments have gone. We need to cut our cloth accordingly. Other teams manage with good scouting and coaching yet we rely on individuals to dig us out every game. Bournemouth, Southampton, Huddersfield, Leicester, Burnley are just a few examples of teams who have an identity and built a team accordingly. A lot of their players who got them up stayed with them to help them consolidate in the league. 

[omariqy]

7 minutes ago, blandy said:

Yes, I agree with that. Thing is, though the team was made up in significant part by other teams players, not our players. That's (I think) what Omar is saying, and he's right. We should aim for a Villa team made of AVFC players, not Bournemouth, West Ham, Man Utd etc. If you're going to be spending 2 million quid on a player each year, better use it on homegrown or bought players than paying part of West Ham's wage bill..etc.

100%

[omariqy]

28 minutes ago, Rodders said:

we've hardly had the pre-season to form alternative options. Until 10 days ago we were close to administration, how was a manager supposed to plan / chart a different course?

Of course it's going to be short termism for now ffs. I have no idea what other option would be reasonably possible at this current stage in proceedings. We can still play youngsters etc, and plan for something new next year once the new guys officially take over etc, and if they've changed manager mid-season that would presumably be with a specific plan in mind. At the moment, the new owners in waiting have had little time and the manager has been in limbo along with the players. 

Now we can mix old heads and young players again. Bruce may not succeed, I am ambivalent with regards his capacities in general, but it seems we are at least looking at creative options in terms of loans. Obviously, ideally we want to invest in our talent and develop a side, that is no doubt preferable plan A. But for where we are at this moment in time that's not going to happen, especially if our immediate aim is a tilt at promotion this year. 

We have youngsters with more experience, potentially a star player available from the off, Kodja not injured etc. We have a good chance of being around the play-off or even promotion spots. It's very difficult to tell as it's a competitive league with other good sides there, and we could still have a good go and fall short and it not be a proof of failure because, we and every other side, are not entitled to anything. 

My point was copying the short-termism from last season and repeating our mistakes. We never learn. 

[Rodders]

my point is what other options do you propose at this point in time?

Also - we finished 4th, and were one game away from succeeding. A failure but no reason to chuck out the baby with the bathwater. We were close, so better personnel, better coaching, and bit of luck can be the difference. There's no reason to think everything needs to be changed. In an ideal world, bedding in for the future sounds fine, but I think dispensing with all of our side, and writing off the season means we then definitely lose grealish, chester etc if we show no ambition this season. 

 

I don't know how you can display immediate ambition ( I am assuming that all fans want to keep the likes of Jack ) and transform the approach to the football within weeks, still with constraints of FFP etc.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Rodders

[Villarocker]

38 minutes ago, Jareth said:

 

It worked for Wolves to be assisted by Mendes but then they had a manager who spoke the lingo and played with a style to match their capabilities. Can our manager do the same? I am not so sure that Bruce would have taken that Wolves side up last season.

[Jareth]

Just now, omariqy said:

My point was copying the short-termism from last season and repeating our mistakes. We never learn. 

I didn't want the same formula this season but if we're sticking with bruce then I'm up for evolution over revolution. Terry may not have the energy for a full season, but Snodgrass does (if he does indeed come) - I'd like to retain what worked last season. Only issue is Bruce doesn't trust the yoof unless he has no choice but to use them, so I'm hoping the owners have given him orders to do just that and if he doesn't then he's off. Ideal world an all. 

[bobzy]

1 minute ago, omariqy said:

We tried 3-5-2 in pre-season last season and he used it barely for one half of the season. He will go back to his tried and trusted approach mark my words. My point is that he has no strategy or game plan. There is no cohesion in his thinking. We will be in the same position in a years time maybe even worse. People wanting to get the old band back together is why fans were sleepwalking to admin a few weeks ago. We are a championship club, parachute payments have gone. We need to cut our cloth accordingly. Other teams manage with good scouting and coaching yet we rely on individuals to dig us out every game. Bournemouth, Southampton, Huddersfield, Leicester, Burnley are just a few examples of teams who have an identity and built a team accordingly. A lot of their players who got them up stayed with them to help them consolidate in the league. 

I'm sure he will go back to his tried and trusted approach - but I'm really not against him having another option.  If we've played a different way in pre-season and need to revert to that in certain games, that's good!  That's exactly what having strategies/game plans is all about, no?  Given his complete lack of this last season, I'm game for learning new ways to play.

People don't want to get the old band back together - they want to take the drummer, who was decent, and the lead guitarist.  The rest have gone and moved on.  It would be illogical, in my opinion, not to look down those channels again - particularly if Snodgrass is available for loan again.  If players work well in our setup and are a positive influence, then include them!  It doesn't matter that they're on loan for a season.

 

r.e: clubs in bold, these literally progressed on massive amounts of money being pumped into the clubs to propel them upwards.  I'm pretty sure Bournemouth and Leicester were subject to FFP punishments but basically said "**** you".  They then got promoted and spent loads more on stripping their teams and replacing players to fit the Premier League (perhaps not so much for Bournemouth, but still).  Is that the identity and team building you're after?  For Huddersfield, they utilised the Premier League loan market superbly by bringing in Aaron Mooy, Danny Ward, Kasey Palmer and Izzy Brown - you're against this though, loans are bad.  So not the right approach either?

The only team you've listed who have done as you'd suggest are Burnley (although in the initial seasons after relegation, they also loaned heavily from the Premier League...).  Yes, I'd love to do a Burnley.  However, their football is pretty much based around being really tight defensively and sneaking goals where they can.  Almost like what we do under Bruce.

[Villarocker]

9 minutes ago, omariqy said:

We tried 3-5-2 in pre-season last season and he used it barely for one half of the season. He will go back to his tried and trusted approach mark my words. My point is that he has no strategy or game plan. There is no cohesion in his thinking. We will be in the same position in a years time maybe even worse. People wanting to get the old band back together is why fans were sleepwalking to admin a few weeks ago. We are a championship club, parachute payments have gone. We need to cut our cloth accordingly. Other teams manage with good scouting and coaching yet we rely on individuals to dig us out every game. Bournemouth, Southampton, Huddersfield, Leicester, Burnley are just a few examples of teams who have an identity and built a team accordingly. A lot of their players who got them up stayed with them to help them consolidate in the league. 

You make some fair points mate. The 3-5-2 formation is something that Bruce seems keen to adopt and what scares me most is the personnel he will deploy there. If Jedinak starts regularly in that position we are going to leak more goals than last season.

[omariqy]

5 minutes ago, Rodders said:

my point is what other options do you propose at this point in time?

Also - we finished 4th, and were one game away from succeeding. A failure but no reason to chuck out the baby with the bathwater. We were close, so better personnel, better coaching, and bit of luck can be the difference. There's no reason to think everything needs to be changed. In an ideal world, bedding in for the future sounds fine, but I think dispensing with all of our side, and writing off the season means we then definitely lose grealish, chester etc if we show no ambition this season. 

 

I don't know how you can display immediate ambition ( I am assuming that all fans want to keep the likes of Jack ) and transform the approach to the football within weeks, still with constraints of FFP etc.

The thing is that we won't have better personnel and we are up against as good if not better teams this time round. I've always said get a coaching/management team in that can actually coach and develop players. Bruce is good at many things but not that. We should have a 2 year plan at least to get a team together, build around our youth, scout players from abroad and lower leagues. Look at players like Douglas picked up for £3m when we wasted £6m on tried and trusted Neil Taylor. 

[omariqy]

19 minutes ago, bobzy said:

I'm sure he will go back to his tried and trusted approach - but I'm really not against him having another option.  If we've played a different way in pre-season and need to revert to that in certain games, that's good!  That's exactly what having strategies/game plans is all about, no?  Given his complete lack of this last season, I'm game for learning new ways to play.

People don't want to get the old band back together - they want to take the drummer, who was decent, and the lead guitarist.  The rest have gone and moved on.  It would be illogical, in my opinion, not to look down those channels again - particularly if Snodgrass is available for loan again.  If players work well in our setup and are a positive influence, then include them!  It doesn't matter that they're on loan for a season.

 

r.e: clubs in bold, these literally progressed on massive amounts of money being pumped into the clubs to propel them upwards.  I'm pretty sure Bournemouth and Leicester were subject to FFP punishments but basically said "**** you".  They then got promoted and spent loads more on stripping their teams and replacing players to fit the Premier League (perhaps not so much for Bournemouth, but still).  Is that the identity and team building you're after?  For Huddersfield, they utilised the Premier League loan market superbly by bringing in Aaron Mooy, Danny Ward, Kasey Palmer and Izzy Brown - you're against this though, loans are bad.  So not the right approach either?

The only team you've listed who have done as you'd suggest are Burnley (although in the initial seasons after relegation, they also loaned heavily from the Premier League...).  Yes, I'd love to do a Burnley.  However, their football is pretty much based around being really tight defensively and sneaking goals where they can.  Almost like what we do under Bruce.

Bournemouth spent big when they got to the PL. Players like Francis, Cook, Daniels, Surman, Ritchie, Wilson, Kane were all purchased for nominal fees from lower league teams. They made up the core of their team in the PL. 

I'm not against loans at all but I am against spending £45k per week on a player when we are financially restricted and need players in several positions. We could get a LB and a RW for those wages and they would be decent players on those wages. I would also like deals agreed to make them permanent. 

Scouting is the way forward. I used Leicester as an example and yes they did also loan players but look at Vardy and Mahrez. Good scouting and coaching. Mahrez cost £500k!

Edited July 30, 2018 by omariqy