Steve Bruce

[mikeyp102]

4 hours ago, Donniewyer said:

V Forest we started off with 3 at the back, that's a week worth of training for that game, for that system.

Within 20 mins, we changed to a flat back 4. A weeks worth of prep for a system for that game, wasted. 

Simple things like that were getting on my nerves.

 

Now we are playing with a 4-4-2, with a settled side, with players needing to up their game to stay in the side and to get into the side.

That makes me happy.

 

Bruce finally saw what the best formation is for the squad we have.

Bristol away, you mean surely?

[TheStagMan]

9 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Cool. If you believe that that's fine.

I think it's naive but there you go.

Naive, LOL, oh deary me.

[villianusa]

On 10/7/2017 at 09:30, blandy said:

It's a good post. I don't agree with all of it by any means, but it's one of the arguments, whatever the results of any current run, for sticking with him.

I don't think it's entirely fair to say "during the poor games, you have to blame the players on the field for this, and the managers if he doesn't make the changes to fix it" I think team selection at the start, the tactics during a game ...etc. are the manager's doing and carry a fair chunk of the credit/responsibility for poor performances as well as good.

You also say that you believe "the team will continue to become more entertaining" - I don't think I've ever seen an entertaining Steve Bruce team. Effective, yes (and ineffective), but personally I don't believe the team will become more entertaining. If it keeps winning we'll be happier, of course.

I agree his ins and outs with players has been well done, definitely. I think basically it boils down to "you must get the team up this season" for him. He either will, which would be brilliant, or he'll be looking for another job. That's ultimately what it boils down to. Tricky, but far from impossible.

 

If Bruce, continues to play the same formation and the same players, and the player's performance drop, then it falls on the player. We can't expect them to perform 24/7 (players have bad games), and it would then be the manager's fault if he didn't make the correct subs during the game, or in future games, if the poor performances continue. Now, if the manager changes the tactics and things go pear-shaped, then that falls at his door. I apologize if I didn't explain my opinion clearly enough first time.

"Become more entertaining", than we have been. We are never going to be Barcelona, but wins will build confidence, in turn, players are more relaxed, and more likely to entertain.

I would certainly agree with your last sentence.

[villianusa]

On 10/7/2017 at 09:48, DCJonah said:

Well written but disagree with a lot of it. 

1) yes we have had large numbers leave but how many have really had an effect. I believe in that 39 there's youth players that have never come close to playing for the first team. I believe you used this number because it adds some dramatic effect, when in reality we lost very little number of players who actually effected the first team squad. 

2) This again seems to be made more dramatic for the sake of defending Bruce. The feel good factor around the club was the highest it had been for years and we were looking a hard to beat team, that created chances, we were poor at taking them and conceded some really soft late goals but I really do think it's exaggerated. 

3) Did he? Our problems last year were not creating a lot of chances and relying on Kodjia far too much. How did he work hard to fix that? Davis was left out after looking good in the final game of last season. Adomah was sitting in the stands and hourihane was on the bench while bacuna was starting. 

4) I think given our aim of automatic promotion, giving him till new year and being outside the top 6 would be incredibly lenient. 

If I was looking for dramatic effect, then I would post against every pro-Bruce, or visa versa.

I believe plenty of these have been in and around the first team http://www.worldfootball.net/teams/aston-villa/2017/6/ http://www.worldfootball.net/teams/aston-villa/2018/6/6/ If you think all those changes are going to build stability, then I would care to disagree.

You don't think the club was in turmoil when Bruce took over? In the relegation zone of the Championship, 1 win in 11, after the worst every season in Premier League, after 6 years in decline. We have a new owner who was looking to spend and I'm happy for that. If not turmoil, then what?

I think the signing of Snodgrass, Elmo, and Onomah have helped with the creativity and the resurgence of Albert. Leaving Davis out when you have Hogan is understandable to me. Spending 12-15 million in January on Hogan meant he had to try and get him firing,  it didn't work out and Davis has now taken his chance. We were as you say, conceding goals later in the game, so yes the player he has brought it has helped fix that. Terry,  Snodgrass,  Elmo, and Whelan, while being able to hold onto Johnstone.

I think our aim is promotion, an automatic promotion would be great, but in through the play-off will do just fine.

[villianusa]

On 10/7/2017 at 17:00, srsmithusa said:

I appreciate that this is thoughtful and balanced however, the bit bolded is, while you admit opinion, it's not well based in the timeline.  Kodjia' leaving was not a surprise.  We didn't bring in any one who could be expected to be goal threat till MUCH later in the window.  It's also generous in saying he tried to fix the problems over the summer, when the problems were the same problems in place when the summer ended.  I think it's more accurate to say that he tried to buy his way out of the problems, when his set up of the players was the biggest problem.  I do agree it takes more than just having good players on paper.  I still think he's made a bundle of mistakes, if October shows he has belatedly turned it around, I'll be happy to have him stay.

4

We don't know who he was trying to bring, but we do know he brought Hogan in. We don't know what other players he may have tried for and was turned down until he finally got Hogan. We do know he tried playing a 12 million player who was pants. We don't know if he was told he had to play the 12 million player and told there wasn't money available. Maybe, Tony panicked at the end of a poor month and said we need to get someone in. All we do know is we got Hogan right at the end. So, to make the assumption that Bruce didn't try or want another forward earlier in January is a little unfair. If you can find somewhere that he said that, then I would stand corrected.

I do remember saying he bought Hogan because he was cheaper than Rhodes, so it might support Tony wanting to splash too much on forwards when he had already spent a bunch on McCormack and Codger.

I actually think a bigger mistake was changing the midfield so quickly after the Cardiff defeat. Westwood and Gardner had been doing okay, and we were on the way up. One defeat, and he tried to cram in Lansbury and Hourihane, and for me, it was too much too soon.

What would be those bolded issues be in your mind?

 

Edited October 9, 2017 by villianusa

[srsmithusa]

He brought in hogan and McCormack on Jan 30 and 31.  AFCON was closer to done than beginning.   So if they were plan B for Kodjia, it was poor, advanced planning at a minimum.  (Seems a bit contrary to “prepared”)   I think Lansbury and Hourihane are probably the best ACM we own.  He tried to utilize them as DM or outside.  That’s his fault, not theirs.    

He pretty clearly tried, IMO, to buy his way out of championship, but got it all wrong.  I still think a better manager, with that level of backing could have got us to the playoffs. And perhaps promoted last year.  

[villan_007]

51 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

He brought in hogan and McCormack on Jan 30 and 31.  AFCON was closer to done than beginning.   So if they were plan B for Kodjia, it was poor, advanced planning at a minimum.  (Seems a bit contrary to “prepared”)   I think Lansbury and Hourihane are probably the best ACM we own.  He tried to utilize them as DM or outside.  That’s his fault, not theirs.    

He pretty clearly tried, IMO, to buy his way out of championship, but got it all wrong.  I still think a better manager, with that level of backing could have got us to the playoffs. And perhaps promoted last year.  

?? Didn't RDM sign McCormack.

[blandy]

4 hours ago, villianusa said:

If Bruce, continues to play the same formation and the same players, and the player's performance drop, then it falls on the player. We can't expect them to perform 24/7 (players have bad games), and it would then be the manager's fault if he didn't make the correct subs during the game, or in future games, if the poor performances continue. Now, if the manager changes the tactics and things go pear-shaped, then that falls at his door. I apologize if I didn't explain my opinion clearly enough first time.

"Become more entertaining", than we have been. We are never going to be Barcelona, but wins will build confidence, in turn, players are more relaxed, and more likely to entertain.

I would certainly agree with your last sentence.

Sure, fair enough. I mostly share your view, but still differ on the first point. We saw with MO’N that he would play the same formation and players and their performance would drop around March time, because basically they had been over-played by him. It was very much his fault. But I agree that a one off bad game is one of those things that happens. No one is to blame. Players try their best, managers pick who they think will perform best. We’re all human.

yes playing with confidence is a key factor for better football.

[Stevo985]

2 hours ago, srsmithusa said:

 

He pretty clearly tried, IMO, to buy his way out of championship, but got it all wrong.  I still think a better manager, with that level of backing could have got us to the playoffs. And perhaps promoted last year.  

Playoffs were definitely possible from where we were.

If by "promotion" you mean automatic, then no I don't think that was possible from the position Bruce took over.

[fightoffyour]

4 hours ago, villianusa said:

I think the signing of Snodgrass, Elmo, and Onomah have helped with the creativity and the resurgence of Albert. Leaving Davis out when you have Hogan is understandable to me. Spending 12-15 million in January on Hogan meant he had to try and get him firing,  it didn't work out and Davis has now taken his chance. We were as you say, conceding goals later in the game, so yes the player he has brought it has helped fix that. Terry,  Snodgrass,  Elmo, and Whelan, while being able to hold onto Johnstone.

Credit to some of the signings sure - Terry looking as excellent as we hoped now, Snodgrass - could well be the best player in the league when fully fit and settled, Johnstone - proving all of our doubts wrong and looks a different player. But...

Adomah? 2 players were signed to replace him and his resurgence is purely down to injuries and his own determination. Davis - ditto. Elmo - ended up at RB due to Adomah and Snodgrass? Easy to look better than Hutton. Onomah - good start, jury is out now though.

Edited October 9, 2017 by fightoffyour

[Rugeley Villa]

just reading in the paper that his win rate is better than it was at any other club that he's managed 50 games or more. 44% win rate.

[sne]

8 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said:

just reading in the paper that his win rate is better than it was at any other club that he's managed 50 games or more. 44% win rate.

Yep, win % is rather good.

Shame about the 34% loss rate.

[TRO]

I would like to see Steve try Onomah & Hourihane in the central 2 midfield positions 4-4-2

i have appreciated the work that Whelan does in terms of breaking up play, if we can get them to do a bit of that, we have 2 who can hurt the opposition too.

would like to see him try it.....seems like Josh is coming in to a bit of form.

equally mindful of not exposing the back four and undoing the good defensive stats.

Edited October 9, 2017 by TRO

[Rugeley Villa]

I'm honestly coming round to the idea of wanting him to stay and get the job done. Maybe I'm being a bit fickle or whatever, but things seem to be moving now. Can't fault him lately, although the football has not been great. 

[Nigel]

4 hours ago, villan_007 said:

?? Didn't RDM sign McCormack.

yep, first signing he made pretty much. Its not even worth pointing out though really. Some just want to find any old stick.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Nigel

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, sne said:

Yep, win % is rather good.

Shame about the 34% loss rate.

The industry only seem to be interested in win ratio's.

i guess Losses and draws are much of a muchness......but by deduction, if you fail to get a win, you've got the other.

its win ratio's they judge managers on.

[sne]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

I would like to see Steve try Onomah & Hourihane in the central 2 midfield positions 4-4-2

i have appreciated the work that Whelan does in terms of breaking up play, if we can them to do a bit of that, we have 2 who can hurt the opposition too.

would like to see him try it.....seems like Josh is coming in to a bit of form.

Me too.

Speculation of course but I imagine one of the reasons Spurs sent Onomah out on loan was to give him game time and toughen up a bit since Pochettino said he was a bit too weak to play in DCM at PL level even thou that is his usual position. And that was why he was played further up at Spurs.

[sne]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

The industry only seem to be interested in win ratio's.

i guess Losses and draws are much of a muchness......but by deduction, if you fail to get a win, you've got the other.

its win ratio's they judge managers on.

With the 3 point system  it's only natural, so no problem with that.

But to finish at the very top you have to turn those losses into draws and wind.

Every loss also gives the other team 3 points.

[Nigel]

1 minute ago, sne said:

With the 3 point system  it's only natural, so no problem with that.

But to finish at the very top you have to turn those losses into draws and wind.

Every loss also gives the other team 3 points.

Wins are all that really matter if you are trying to get up automatically, a draw is 2 points dropped.

[Dr_Pangloss]

2 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Playoffs were definitely possible from where we were.

If by "promotion" you mean automatic, then no I don't think that was possible from the position Bruce took over.

Basically this, automatic promotion was off the table, playoffs were more than realistic given resources, total failure to finish where we did, Let's hope he puts it right this time around!