Steve Bruce

[TRO]

38 minutes ago, Eastie said:

Since Brighton they have been coached by Colin calderwood - do you think he is one of the factors in our demise or just coincidental?

who knows?

We don't know....for all we know, they could be saying everything right, but the players are not executing it.....it could be the other way around.

all we can go by, is what we see.

[markavfc40]

24 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

It was the same system @markavfc40 that we have been watching week in week out, particularly away from home. It's a false narrative to suggest that it is down to the players, IMO. 

Some of them clearly shouldn't be playing at the moment and that has hopefully been addressed. By the same token, he's making Chester and Baker look bad, two players I am confident, aren't. 

It's the system that is wrong, bottom line for me. If the system stays the same then we could be in real trouble. He needs to look at himself and change it. Fingers crossed he will do so, Saturday is coming up quick and if they set up the same we will lose.  

I don't necessarily think it is the system he wants to play mate. I think if Jedi is fit he plays in front of the back four and then Chester and Baker look more solid as they have done when Jedi has been there. I also think he will want Taylor at left back as defensively Amavi has been poor for some time and likewise Hutton for all his effort but both full backs go missing and it can pull the centre backs out and it leaves a big gap in between them one last night that Brentford exploited.

Last night I also think if fit Gabby would have played, either in a two with Kodjia or more likely Kodjia wide left where he is more effective for me as he can't lead a line. As it was he had no choice other than to go with Kodjia up top.

Time will tell on this one. I just look at Bruce's CV, therefore know he knows what it takes to get out of this division, most recently as 9 months ago, and can't believe he won't have a system in mind that will see us successful in this league and that he just needed to find the pieces to fit it. Now he has done that we will hopefully see a settled formation and team and with that will eventually come better results and performances. Or maybe I am wrong on him and just desperate for him to do well as I can't stand the thought of another manager, another squad over haul and another half a season wasted. 

I have never advocated sticking with a manager when evidence suggests he is the wrong man just for the sake of stability regardless of whether I backed them from the off or not. At this stage though I just call for a little patience and time to see what a manager with a proven track record at this level can do now he has had chance to fill a few gaps and improve on a number of weaknesses.

Edited February 1, 2017 by markavfc40

[AntrimBlack]

1 hour ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

OK so here goes...

I am, or was, a fully fledged member of the Steve Bruce fan club, but my patience is fast wearing thin. I am sick to the high teeth of the embarrassing, inept displays. Early on, the performances were not always vintage but they garnered results and I could see signs of a 'plan' forming. Yet slowly over time they have descended into rotten, bone crushing defeats or at best scrambled points. It's completely unacceptable to me that Aston Villa should be continuing to fail, week after **** week. I'm done with it. 

Now, you can say "but they're not Bruces players yet" and to a degree I accept that. However he has had 4 months in which to build a framework into which 'his' players can slot and he has completely failed in that remit. Last night was possibly the worst performance not only of his tenure but every bit as bad as the bilge served up by the likes of Eric Black. It was pathetic.

Yet I am told that after 4 months with the  squad, not a great bunch of players admittedly but surely adequate professionals in the main, he cannot put a structure in place into which the likes of Lansbury and Hourihane can at least perform to an acceptable standard? If not, why start all three of a brand new midfield in an away game straight off the bat? Spend more time with them, ease them in to a system away from a place where it directly affects the club on the pitch. Why Birkir over Grealish, for example? At least he knows they system by now and if he does not, why not? 

The system we employed last night, by the way, was utter dog shit. If that is his plan, forget it. Both Lansbury and Hourhane playing a deep lying role 25 yards from Birkir who runs around like a headless chicken, Kodjia does Kodjia, Adomah doesn't track his runner, Hutton tucks in and gets made a fool of, yet again, and we start a 22 and a 19 year old on the other wing. And I got wet.

Rubbish, total **** rubbish. Don't apologise and stop throwing the players under the bus. **** sort it out, especially now you have been backed to the hilt. There are no excuses left.

I can accept things taking time to click, but I won't accept any more of that shite.  

Agree with everything except this. This lad was our best player.

[sharkyvilla]

The thing is if we get rid, we just get someone else in who doesn't fancy certain players so the Doc gives him a load of money to spend on replacements and the spiral continues.  Perhaps it would have been better to give the job to someone who is used to not having a pot to piss in and rely on using what we've got and coaching them to be better players, but we went the other way with Bruce and we have to give him an opportunity next season starting from zero.  We need a bit of continuity.

[TRO]

29 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

It was the same system @markavfc40 that we have been watching week in week out, particularly away from home. It's a false narrative to suggest that it is down to the players, IMO. 

Some of them clearly shouldn't be playing at the moment and that has hopefully been addressed. By the same token, he's making Chester and Baker look bad, two players I am confident, aren't. 

It's the system that is wrong, bottom line for me. If the system stays the same then we could be in real trouble. He needs to look at himself and change it. Fingers crossed he will do so, Saturday is coming up quick and if they set up the same we will lose.  

Interesting...

so how should we set up Dave?

[dont_do_it_doug.]

2 minutes ago, AntrimBlack said:

Agree with everything except this. This lad was our best player.

Wasn't my point but I agree. 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

Just now, TRO said:

Interesting...

so how should we set up Dave?

I explained everything that I though was wrong a few pages back. So not that. 

[mykeyb]

Why did he take so long to change it last night, Dean Smith changed it and they took the upper hand, Bruce didn't. Brentford scored, Bruce still changed nothing, Brentford scored again, nothing from Bruce. Half time came and went and again nothing appeared to have been altered. I cannot say what happened after they scored again as at that point I turned off.

Out thought by Dean Smith. Who was it that suggested him as a replacement when RDM got the sack?.

For the record I am not suggesting that Bruce gets his P45, I would like to see him do some managing during the 90 minutes+ on the pitch.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I think there is a middle ground to be found between showing patience and giving the team time to gel when they are showing signs of doing so and the shit sandwiches he has been serving week after week this past 6 weeks or so. 

Since Brighton basically. What has he done with that team? They weren't 'his' players either. 

Anyway, I feel better now! Though I am just reminded he came dangerously close to saying "we go again" last night  

sometimes.....like watching that, there is little else TO say.

[striker]

2 hours ago, mykeyb said:

I agree totally. How long has Lambert been at Wolves?, Their fans can see what he is trying to achieve. McLaren has rejuvenated Derby who were below us when Bruce came, they are now out of sight.

 

Firstly mykeyb my apologies for deleting the rest of your post but I wanted to highlight the excellent point you have made above.

Neither Lambert or McLaren needed to spend millions to turn their respective clubs around. Nor have they needed much time to do it. What they have done is organise the players available into a cohesive unit that is both affective going forward and in defence. Playing to their strengths as a team via good sensible coaching.

That has negated the excuse of more time or just too many new players imo. Remember under Bruce (apart from one game) with a squad on paper every bit as good as Wolves or Derby the performances were still poor. New player syndrome doesn't wash with me as all but one of the debutants last night had already been blooded in the Championship over many games with other teams.

A repeat of last nights performance against Forest on Saturday should be as unacceptable to Xia as it was last night to the fans and unless Bruce scraps his present tactics I do not think Bruce will be manager of Villa for much longer.

Edited February 1, 2017 by striker

[TRO]

21 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I explained everything that I though was wrong a few pages back. So not that. 

That post does not really answer the question.....it only says what you were unhappy with

I am not unconditionally defending Steve Bruce, because that display was appalling.....I am just interested like you what caused it and can we avoid it happening again.

well WE can't., only he can....but if we are going to criticise his set up, we must have an opinion, what it should be or should have been.

I am uncomfortable with the comment Birkir has been non playing for 5 weeks....that does strike me as odd to play him.

Ps I did'nt see much wrong with the setup, except ideally would have liked Jedinak to be in.....it was more the way they individually set about the task for me.

[TRO]

40 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

I don't necessarily think it is the system he wants to play mate. I think if Jedi is fit he plays in front of the back four and then Chester and Baker look more solid as they have done when Jedi has been there. I also think he will want Taylor at left back as defensively Amavi has been poor for some time and likewise Hutton for all his effort but both full backs go missing and it can pull the centre backs out and it leaves a big gap in between them one last night that Brentford exploited.

Last night I also think if fit Gabby would have played, either in a two with Kodjia or more likely Kodjia wide left where he is more effective for me as he can't lead a line. As it was he had no choice other than to go with Kodjia up top.

Time will tell on this one. I just look at Bruce's CV, therefore know he knows what it takes to get out of this division, most recently as 9 months ago, and can't believe he won't have a system in mind that will see us successful in this league and that he just needed to find the pieces to fit it. Now he has done that we will hopefully see a settled formation and team and with that will eventually come better results and performances. Or maybe I am wrong on him and just desperate for him to do well as I can't stand the thought of another manager, another squad over haul and another half a season wasted. 

I have never advocated sticking with a manager when evidence suggests he is the wrong man just for the sake of stability regardless of whether I backed them from the off or not. At this stage though I just call for a little patience and time to see what a manager with a proven track record at this level can do now he has had chance to fill a few gaps and improve on a number of weaknesses.

very good post Mark

I endorse the first paragraph in particular.

[mykeyb]

He needed to select a system that fitted the resources available to him, I think he ended up in a half way house last night and it showed.

 

[Eastie]

15 minutes ago, striker said:

Firstly mykeyb my apologies for deleting the rest of your post but I wanted to highlight the excellent point you have made above.

Neither Lambert or McLaren needed to spend millions to turn their respective clubs around. Nor have they needed much time to do it. What they have done is organise the players available into a cohesive unit that is both affective going forward and in defence. Playing to their strengths as a team via good sensible coaching.

That has negated the excuse of more time or just too many new players imo. Remember under Bruce (apart from one game) with a squad on paper every bit as good as Wolves or Derby the performances were still poor. New player syndrome doesn't wash with me as all but one of the debutants last night had already been blooded in the Championship over many games with other teams.

A repeat of last nights performance against Forest on Saturday should be as unacceptable to Xia as it was last night to the fans and unless Bruce scraps his present tactics I do not think Bruce will be manager of Villa for much longer.

I think Lambert is still in the honeymoon period at wolves - as was Bruce when he got us winning games on arrival - can't see it lasting long at wolves before it goes tits up .

as for Bruce - stuff the apologies and start doing what you are being paid to do - this has happened too often in recent weeks - he's bought his players in and been backed - now we want results and fast ! 

[theboyangel]

One thing I don't get with Bruce is we revamp the midfield only to instruct the defence to continually bypass them and hit long hopeful balls to our lone striker... 

awful tactics, just hope things click between our new players and we start playing football again instead of trying to clear pigeons from the tops of the stands! 

[Eastie]

1 minute ago, theboyangel said:

One thing I don't get with Bruce is we revamp the midfield only to instruct the defence to continually bypass them and hit long hopeful balls to our lone striker... 

awful tactics, just hope things click between our new players and we start playing football again instead of trying to clear pigeons from the tops of the stands! 

Agreed - kodija is no target man and last nights tactics were baffling to say the least .

[TRO]

1 hour ago, terrytini said:

TRO there aren't many seriously suggesting he is sacked now.

But he is doing his cause no good by failing to get either performances or results.

Outside a minority we are a long suffering patient lot. Nobody expects miracles.

But for a long while we've played poor football, got poor results, had no discernible system, and no Manager can survive that combination for long.

Ps ; I have never bought into the 'own players' argument.... it can have an effect of course but the significance is overrated imo.

And the tactics are often  irrelevant to the players in this League. Creative midfielders staying in their own half is tactics, and Bruce has shown over and over again he is very very cautious.

Look, I know you're not saying sack him......and I know that display is enough to hurt any discerning fan.....it certainly wasn't a night for que sera sera.

I know we are going to disagree on this ,so I apologies in advance......This is how I seen the game, whether I am right or wrong, head above the parapet.

I disagree with your view the new midfielders  staying in there own half, was tactics.....They were closed down by a very vibrant Brentford team who out shone us in leaps and bounds in terms of intensity....Our lads wanted to get forward, they couldn't, because they were under the cosh.....I don't really know how much the newness effected us, but apparently Birkir hadn't played for 5 weeks ( can't defend that one Steve without knowing more)

Apparently, Dean smith identified a problem in the Chelsea Game, where Chelsea were much quicker to the ball.....they worked on that and trialled it against us.

I don't think Steve was cautious enough, paradoxically speaking.....I would have come out with instruction to close them down press them dull the crowd and gradually grown in to the game.....When the duels were won, apply the football.

Instead, we went a  bit gung ho early doors, never scored and played our hand......and subsequently got undone and it gradually got worse.

With a new midfield i think we wasn't cautious enough in terms of instruction particularly from the off......not to be confused with the way the game panned out, because we was constantly on the back foot.

Edited February 1, 2017 by TRO

[terrytini]

I won't quote the lengthy- and very interesting - posts but I can't agree that with the idea that Bruce plays this way through circumstances rather than choice.

Are people really saying his available players are so poor we have to play defensively, sit off teams, ignore the advantages of a pressing game etc ?

The teams we are playing against have, by and large, poorer squads but are doing fine getting after us. Brentford didn't need to have exactly this player or that player in order to seize control last night and they were in a poor run of form as well.

If Bruce (a) needs an eternity with his players ( I don't mean the new ones) and (b) to have exactly the 'right' guys available in order for the team to press, pass, move, close down, and get forward, he is no Mamager at all !

I can be a little more forgiving of results but some of the explanations or reasons offered for our non- football- and it is by no means just last night, the exceptions are just that -don't add up for me.

Edpecially when he has always played that way.

[terrytini]

TRO I recall you saying RDM would have helped himself if he'd communicated what he was trying to do and why.

I think Bruce is now in the same position. 

The purchases DO suggest he wants to play football but the evidence doesn't. 

Would it do him any harm to spend five minutes saying what he's after ?Ind you I recall a similar defensive Manager Mcleish  saying one thing but doing another, so maybe it's irrelevant.

Edited February 1, 2017 by terrytini

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

18 minutes ago, theboyangel said:

One thing I don't get with Bruce is we revamp the midfield only to instruct the defence to continually bypass them and hit long hopeful balls to our lone striker... 

awful tactics, just hope things click between our new players and we start playing football again instead of trying to clear pigeons from the tops of the stands! 

And this is why it's such bizarre logic that I don't believe it's true. He identifies that we need a new midfield yet purposely instructs the players to by pass it. I just can't believe this to be the case.

I think the players were panicked by Brentford's pressing and they lost their composure. They could also no longer find Lansbury, who I think probably WAS asked asked to move the ball forward to JK quickly, and he was doing that quite effectively at the start because Brentford had played a fairly high line, but once they'd 'lost' the Lansbury option, they were left with nothing else. Hourihane couldn't get into the game (although was possibly played on the wrong side of midfield) and Bjarn was totally out of his depth, so we effectively had no midfield again.

This, however, is where Bruce needed a plan B, but with barely any time to work with the players as a full group I'm going to allow him just an iota of lee way. Just for now.

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2017 by Morley_crosses_to_Withe