Steve Bruce

[TRO]

Perhaps we should get Paul Lambert back the tactically bereft then....now tactically aware manager.

Look , that display and a number since the Cardiff Game have been abysmal and yes downright embarrassing.

I think Steve Bruce is as pissed off as we are except he pays with his job.....I don't think Changing managers as regularly as we do is doing our cause any good at all and in our Present case, he has proved a level of success in this division.....but he must find a solution to stop this capitulation.

No one can defend what I witnessed last night.....I think it is a number of factors that are out of kilter, But I am not convinced that Tactics alone are the problem.

is it conceivable these professional managers who have cut their teeth on tactics suddenly arrive at Villa Park without out any Nous in respect of them......Nah.

We had how many potential captains on the pitch.....That team last night was not playing to orders, They let themselves get over run by a team intent of winning first and second balls, pressed us to death that basically nullified any attacking intent we had.

We need to learn how to contain and take the sting out of teams

We did this to Liverpool when we won 5-1 at Villa Park.....we used to do it ourselves.

We need to give Steve Bruce time to fix it.....He knows what he seen last night is not acceptable.....and I am not saying managers have a criticism free reign on this.

He has proved in his earlier games he could  get some resilience from those players......now he needs to get it with his new ones.

Ps I do share his view, money won't fix this kind of problem. 

[TRO]

The pressure on us to go up is in the shop window......We are a big club who simply cannot afford to spend too long down here.....that is to some degree our achilles heel at present.

clubs like Leeds and Brighton, Sheff Wed.....have had more time to formulate a cohesive unit....They have had time to gel and repair.

It has taken us time to identify our weaknesses and  we are WIP trying to fix it.

There is no magic wand or any nailed on fix it manager.

It has to be worked on......However, we can't have too many last nights.

Edited February 1, 2017 by TRO

[Lerner's Driver]

2 minutes ago, terrytini said:

Well on that I agree. Some of the comments against him have in my view been way way over the top tantrum like outbursts that are really quite embarrassing.

Agreed. We are all sick of it and just want to enjoy the thing we love again, but at the end of the days it's only football.

Really not worth getting that upset about when there's plenty otherwise to worry about in the world.

[BOF]

Just now, terrytini said:

However we will have to agree to disagree on how much tolerance and leeway he deserves on current performances and results...

Yep that's fair enough.  February should be interesting though.  It's a busy month with 6 games (4th, 11th, 14th, 20th, 25th & 28th).  4 of those at home.  As it stands, I think most people after last night's result and performance would concede that a playoff spot now looks far less than likely.  As such, I'd like to come out of February with the team at least looking in better shape and putting in better performances.  If we were to somehow get ourselves back into playoff contention then that would be a nice bonus.

As DDID says above.  You've been backed to the hilt.  There are no excuses now from a squad point of view.  Go and do it.  I think if you add in a little time in order to get it all settled down then we're all more or less on the same page.  Patience seems to be the one variable.

[terrytini]

16 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Oh and I am not advocating sacking him, that would be bonkers at this stage. But if things don't improve from that crap and quickly then whatever. If we have to sack 10,000 managers to get back to where we belong then so be it. I'm past caring about individuals. 

I agree fully with your longer post but particularly with this.

Just like Levy keeps sacking Managers as he strives to win the League, there is no shame doing it for other reasons.

I think they have to be given time, but by the end of this season Bruce will have had enough time for a reasonable assessment to be made. Half a season is enough to see whether we are progressing or not, and the fact we've done poorly under several Managers, whilst in Lambert case probably largely as a result of Lerners drastic shut down ( in all ways), is not a sign of s curse or of all the players being useless or mentally weak, it's poor management.

[TRO]

Despite that woeful attempt to resemble a football team.

I still think Steve Bruce is the right man for this job.

[markavfc40]

36 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

 

Now, you can say "but they're not Bruces players yet" and to a degree I accept that. However he has had 4 months in which to build a framework into which 'his' players can slot and he has completely failed in that remit. Last night was possibly the worst performance not only of his tenure but every bit as bad as the bilge served up by the likes of Eric Black. It was pathetic.

 

Dave he has had four months with someone else's squad, a squad that the guy who assembled couldn't get results out of and who didn't have a clue how to piece together the jigsaw he had purchased.

In that 4 months we have had some decent performances, some diabolical and mostly just so so ones. He has tried to find a solution to a dire midfield and to a lack of goals by trying numerous permutations to get the best out of what was an unbalanced squad. He could maybe have come in and said I am going 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 or whatever and said I am sticking to that. I guess that would give you your framework. I don't know what his favoured formation is but maybe he tried it and it failed miserably, maybe it worked but due to injuries or the AFCON he felt he had to change it because with the players he had available he couldn't make it work or maybe he simply felt because of the players he inherited he couldn't go with a set formation and had to try to make do until January. Lets not forget he had no preseason to try things out and the games have come thick and fast.

That four months hasn't been a total disaster by the way. We have taken 25 points in those 17 games.

Regardless of how we judge those four months we are where we are. He has just overseen another big overhaul in the squad with 8 players in and 6 out. You would hope, and I think he has, moulded that squad with a formation and best 11 in mind. Unlike others before him he has identified weakness in the squad and filled them. What he now has to do, and what he will now be judged on, is getting the best out of them.

I am as pissed off as any fan with some of what we have witnessed under Bruce but given his CV I have enough confidence in him that he does know what he is doing, that having re moulded the squad he will have a formation and a settled side in mind and we will start to see things come together, the team gel and an upturn in results and performances. If we don't then he'll know the consequences like the rest of us but we are some way from even having to contemplate that.

Edited February 1, 2017 by markavfc40

[dont_do_it_doug.]

1 minute ago, BOF said:

As DDID says above.  You've been backed to the hilt.  There are no excuses now from a squad point of view.  Go and do it.  I think if you add in a little time in order to get it all settled down then we're all more or less on the same page.  Patience seems to be the one variable.

I think there is a middle ground to be found between showing patience and giving the team time to gel when they are showing signs of doing so and the shit sandwiches he has been serving week after week this past 6 weeks or so. 

Since Brighton basically. What has he done with that team? They weren't 'his' players either. 

Anyway, I feel better now! Though I am just reminded he came dangerously close to saying "we go again" last night  

[BOF]

1 minute ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

he came dangerously close to saying "we go again" last night  

Almost a Turbo moment?

[terrytini]

9 minutes ago, TRO said:

Perhaps we should get Paul Lambert back the tactically bereft then....now tactically aware manager.

Look , that display and a number since the Cardiff Game have been abysmal and yes downright embarrassing.

I think Steve Bruce is as pissed off as we are except he pays with his job.....I don't think Changing managers as regularly as we do is doing our cause any good at all and in our Present case, he has proved a level of success in this division.....but he must find a solution to stop this capitulation.

No one can defend what I witnessed last night.....I think it is a number of factors that are out of kilter, But I am not convinced that Tactics alone are the problem.

is it conceivable these professional managers who have cut their teeth on tactics suddenly arrive at Villa Park without out any Nous in respect of them......Nah.

We had how many potential captains on the pitch.....That team last night was not playing to orders, They let themselves get over run by a team intent of winning first and second balls, pressed us to death that basically nullified any attacking intent we had.

We need to learn how to contain and take the sting out of teams

We did this to Liverpool when we won 5-1 at Villa Park.....we used to do it ourselves.

We need to give Steve Bruce time to fix it.....He knows what he seen last night is not acceptable.....and I am not saying managers have a criticism free reign on this.

He has proved in his earlier games he could  get some resilience from those players......now he needs to get it with his new ones.

Ps I do share his view, money won't fix this kind of problem. 

But equally is it conceivable that so many captains and reasonable players could keep being so poor ?

I think we HAVE appointed poor Managers. Mcleish, Sherwood, Garde, Black were certainly so. 

Lambert I think was good at first but struggled in the culture of failure from the open and the lack of investment until by his last season he was shot to bits.

RDM bought poorly and looked poor but had had previous success, had a big clear out to do, and was sacked early. But most thought he needed to go.

Bruce has had previous success so that buys him time and some patience, but no more than that. There is nothing to suggest he is a messiah and he must be judged on results, performances, and progress. On all three he currently is failing so things have to improve or we have to try someone else. 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

3 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

Dave he has had four months with someone else's squad, a squad that the guy who assembled couldn't get results out of and who didn't have a clue how to piece together the jigsaw he had purchased.

In that 4 months we have had some decent performances, some diabolical and mostly just so so ones.

Trouble is Mark, the decent performances have stopped and the mostly just so so ones have bitten the dust too. 

We played well for 45 minutes against Preston. We did OK vs Leeds. We scraped a win on Boxing Day vs Burton. That's it, in almost 2 months. His players or not, I do not accept that they are not better than this. Even Di Matteo had them playing better than this and as you rightly point out, he was clueless and he was sacked for similar results. 

[srsmithusa]

While I am critical of his management from last night, I agree he needs more time.  I'm not on an anti-Bruce campaign at all, but there need to be substantial changes in the performances and the results, or a change will be the right call.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

2 minutes ago, BOF said:

Almost a Turbo moment?

I just had a wry chuckle. I'm not as angry as it's coming across just bitterly disappointing at the state my football club has become. Where we are having to give a manager time after dross like last night has become the norm. 

[terrytini]

Mark - I won't quote the whole post - you say our points tally is okay since he arrived. As with other points you've raised there, I don't agree. I think that's a poor return overall, and 11 from the last ten games is appalling.

 

[TRO]

1 minute ago, terrytini said:

But equally is it conceivable that so many captains and reasonable players could keep being so poor ?

I think we HAVE appointed poor Managers. Mcleish, Sherwood, Garde, Black were certainly so. 

Lambert I think was good at first but struggled in the culture of failure from the open and the lack of investment until by his last season he was shot to bits.

RDM bought poorly and looked poor but had had previous success, had a big clear out to do, and was sacked early. But most thought he needed to go.

Bruce has had previous success so that buys him time and some patience, but no more than that. There is nothing to suggest he is a messiah and he must be judged on results, performances, and progress. On all three he currently is failing so things have to improve or we have to try someone else. 

Ultimately, yes......we would have to try someone else.

but now we are close to suggesting that someone else, needs to be able to do it in half a season.....Blimey our signings have only just found out where the toilets are at BMH.

Terry, we have to be careful that our frustration.....and hey I am not belittleing that.....is in sync with what is reasonable in terms of fix it time.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

1 minute ago, terrytini said:

11 from the last ten games is appalling.

 

Which is horrifyingly close to 10 from 11. 

[BOF]

1 minute ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I just had a wry chuckle. I'm not as angry as it's coming across just bitterly disappointing at the state my football club has become. Where we are having to give a manager time after dross like last night has become the norm. 

I understand you, but I think last night's dross (as distinct from recent dross) had at least got extenuating circumstances on its side.  It was a midfield that hadn't played together before.  Now you are right that it is Bruce's fault that those midfielders were chosen together and put in that situation, but at least that's their first encounter out of the way.  They'll never again have that excuse, and I expect they won't need it, because they'll improve from here on in.  The raw materials are there.  Let's hope the chef gets cookin' pronto.

[terrytini]

I think it's all moot anyway.

When a lot of fans are either anti or at least very concerned you can bet the Owner is too.

I have no doubt that anything less than about tenth and some decent performanc s he will be gone in the summer.

Fingers crossed - again- that's not the case.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

3 minutes ago, BOF said:

I understand you, but I think last night's dross (as distinct from recent dross) had at least got extenuating circumstances on its side.  It was a midfield that hadn't played together before.  Now you are right that it is Bruce's fault that those midfielders were chosen together and put in that situation, but at least that's their first encounter out of the way.  They'll never again have that excuse, and I expect they won't need it, because they'll improve from here on in.  The raw materials are there.  Let's hope the chef gets cookin' pronto.

I hope so, because except for a few months last season when we collectively chucked the towel in I've been saying/reading that almost daily for the past 6 years.

[terrytini]

TRO there aren't many seriously suggesting he is sacked now.

But he is doing his cause no good by failing to get either performances or results.

Outside a minority we are a long suffering patient lot. Nobody expects miracles.

But for a long while we've played poor football, got poor results, had no discernible system, and no Manager can survive that combination for long.

Ps ; I have never bought into the 'own players' argument.... it can have an effect of course but the significance is overrated imo.

And the tactics are often  irrelevant to the players in this League. Creative midfielders staying in their own half is tactics, and Bruce has shown over and over again he is very very cautious.