Genie Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: So democracy means people make a decision and that's it then? Yes Ask for a vote, get a vote, honour the result is pretty much how it works. Its probably too early to start a campaign for a referendum to re-join the EU but that is going to be the only way to get back in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Going against the democratic choice of 'the people' can never be the better option. Giving us new information and the opportunity to vote again, fair enough. But to simply decree that staying would be better, at this point, should rightly create real trouble. Perhaps we could also say the result of the last GE was wrong and install a different party in charge I'm not saying that it should be cancelled. I'm saying that remain should remain an option, however we get to that. (For example, the deal, no deal or remain) I've just never seen anything like this. Everything points towards this being a ridiculous idea and we're just plowing on ahead. You wouldn't do this in smaller decisions (if you voted for a place to eat and then the place had some really bad reviews) so why the hell are we doing it now? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 Just now, Genie said: Yes Ask for a vote, get a vote, honour the result is pretty much how it works. Its probably too early to start a campaign for a referendum to re-join the EU but that is going to be the only way to get back in. No one is disagreeing there. I strongly disagree with your view that remaining is no longer an option (even if the people want it now) Democracy is not a vacuum though. Asking the question again is wholly democratic, especially over 2 years after the initial vote and after every bit of new info (including the criminality of the Leave campaign(s)) As a caveat, I was against another vote, until probably 2 weeks ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 @StefanAVFC can you not see what the repercussions would be of re-offering the remain option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, Genie said: Yes Ask for a vote, get a vote, honour the result is pretty much how it works. Yup. And as soon as someone, anyone is able to articulate a method to do so then it'll happen. We're still waiting though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 Just now, Genie said: @StefanAVFC can you not see what the repercussions would be of re-offering the remain option? Basically saying that 48% of the population (more now) don't matter anymore. You can't just pretend that almost half of the voters don't exist anymore. Democracy is not 'you lost so you have to agree with me now' otherwise we wouldn't have opposition. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted November 25, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted November 25, 2018 I think it should be offered again. No deal. Mays deal Remain With actual factual detail on what will likely happen with each scenario, instead of lies. Should have been that way in the first place. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 5 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: So democracy means people make a decision and that's it then? May as well cancel every other election moving forward if that's what we're doing now. I think you’re argument is a tad flawed ... it comes down to the referendum was sold as In or Out here’s your choice , I don’t believe it was sold as in or out but we will have another one if it’s close ... perhaps it should have been written into the referendum that it needed a 60/40 win , but to my knowledge that wasn’t the case General elections have always been held and the understanding is that they always will be , nobody is arguing otherwise 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 5 minutes ago, Genie said: Ask for a vote, get a vote, honour the result regardless of context, events after, forecasts, information, expert opinion etc fixed your post It's mental. Are we all stubborn that we just have to plow ahead regardless of the damage it'll certainly cause? As I said before, people don't take that attitude for much smaller decisions that don't really even matter, but the biggest act of self-harm in generations and we're expected to fall in line and do it anyway regardless. Everyone has lost their goddamned minds. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Genie said: @StefanAVFC can you not see what the repercussions would be of re-offering the remain option? People who were angry at the start of this process, remained angry throughout the whole process and are angry at the end of the process will be angry after the process has finished? The repercussions of literally any result of this are terrible. We're deciding which extremity to hacksaw off our body, and "none of them" isn't an option. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 Just now, tonyh29 said: I think you’re argument is a tad flawed ... it comes down to the referendum was sold as In or Out here’s your choice , I don’t believe it was sold as in or out but we will have another one if it’s close ... perhaps it should have been written into the referendum that it needed a 60/40 win , but to my knowledge that wasn’t the case General elections have always been held and the understanding is that they always will be , nobody is arguing otherwise It was sold as In/Out with no nuance around the question itself. A second ref with the options outlined by PieFace makes more sense (done with Single Transferable Vote so that it can't be framed that the question split the leave vote) There isn't a mandate for 'Out like May's deal' or 'Hard out', just like there wouldn't be a mandate if it were 52/48 to remain for Euro, Schengen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 8 minutes ago, PieFacE said: I think it should be offered again. No deal. Mays deal Remain With actual factual detail on what will likely happen with each scenario, instead of lies. Should have been that way in the first place. I’d welcome it being offered again, but I can understand why it won’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said: It was sold as In/Out with no nuance around the question itself. A second ref with the options outlined by PieFace makes more sense (done with Single Transferable Vote so that it can't be framed that the question split the leave vote) There isn't a mandate for 'Out like May's deal' or 'Hard out', just like there wouldn't be a mandate if it were 52/48 to remain for Euro, Schengen. The implication now for a new referendum with full disclosure would be In but we’d have to renegotiate our deal with the EU on their terms ( subject to the ECJ ruling this week ) .. and that might actually make it unpalatable for some remainers and leavers ? And if the second vote was then leave again by another tight margin would that be it ? Or would we go again ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 1 minute ago, tonyh29 said: The implication now for a new referendum with full disclosure would be In but we’d have to renegotiate our deal with the EU on their terms ( subject to the ECJ ruling this week ) .. and that might actually make it unpalatable for some remainers and leavers ? And if the second vote was then leave again by another tight margin would that be it ? Or would we go again ? If it was presented the same as the last one, I'd be massively against it but if it happened exactly like, then yes, it would be it. We know enough now that we'd have a more informed public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 You really think your pals at the EU would just let us back in should we decide to stay. We will have more rules we previously have had the option of refusing before, an it'll probably cost us 200 billion to get back in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 14 minutes ago, PieFacE said: With actual factual detail on what will likely happen with each scenario, instead of lies. I see the flaw in your plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 Just now, foreveryoung said: You really think your pals at the EU would just let us back in should we decide to stay. right now, yes incidentally, use of the word 'pals' is kinda aggressive 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: You really think your pals at the EU would just let us back in should we decide to stay. They have indicated as such and it's in the best interests of the EU for us to be a member. 3 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: We will have more rules we previously have had the option of refusing before, Exactly. We had a very good deal as it stood and we could end up screwing it up with our collective tantrum. 4 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: an it'll probably cost us 200 billion to get back in. Source? or just more off the cuff nonsense? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 22 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Are you presuming here that no Labour would vote for it? Yes, basically. It's hard to see many who would. Some of the centrists made sympathetic noises when it came out, but if it's going down to defeat anyway there's not much point making a Pyrrhic vote in favour. Lisa Nandy, who was one of the centrist types who seemed most initially open to the idea of voting for it, said today that it was 'unthinkable' she would. Gareth Snell mostly seems to try to avoid writing about Brexit on Twitter, but retweeted Corbyn's tweet about Labour's 'alternative plan', which I'm taking as a sign he'll vote against the government. Jess Phillips has now come out in favour of a second referendum, so has gone the other way. I think Caroline Flint might vote with the government, but there won't be many, and there's a lot of room for some Tories chickening out and some Labour breaking the whip, and still the government losing comfortably. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 34 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: If the ECJ rule that A50 can’t be revoked then in effect that means we are leaving , be it with Mays deal or No deal ...ergo we’d need to reapply , assuming there was a desire to do so Right, I don't disagree. But if the ECJ rule the other way, then (supposing UKGov took the decision to do so, which currently seems unlikely but who knows) if we revoked before the 29th of March, there would be no need to reapply, because we wouldn't have left. Maybe we're agreeing with each other here, I'm not sure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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