StefanAVFC Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 (edited) Also your nonsense about Tusk/PiS and their mutual hatred (although more from PiS) shows your ignorance about both EU and Polish politics. Edited November 25, 2018 by StefanAVFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 1 hour ago, tonyh29 said: I’m not saying the ECJ can’t have a hearing just that I don’t think they can Rule that it can be withdrawn... we’d have to reapply , not that I think that will happen either I can't pretend to be an expert on this, but I'm not following your reasoning? The court case, I thought, was to determine if it is possible to 'unilaterally revoke article 50'. Inherent in the meaning of 'unilaterally' is that it doesn't matter if others agree or not. I'm also not following why we would need to reapply, when we haven't actually left yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 1 hour ago, foreveryoung said: This is my belief, but alot of people/politicians think they could have done better. "A lot of people thinking they could have done better" but without the wit to even know how to spell "EU", is what put us here in the first place. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 3 hours ago, Genie said: Not sure why she’s pushing it through Europe if she thinks it’ll fail at home? Bit like me doing a deal on a new car knowing full well my wife will block it... The situation in the commons must not be as bad as reported, maybe she knows people will change their stance at the last minute (dished out a few sweetners). The maths almost certainly is better than is being reported - I don't for a minute believe that all 94 of @bickster's names will actually rebel - but since she only needs 7 Tory no's to lose, it's pretty much impossible to see it passing. The reason she's doing it despite that, is that 'no deal' is an outright catastrophe that has the potential to plunge the country into the sort of conditions normally associated with the aftermath of natural disasters. She has to do something to try to prevent that. And don't forget, this deal is her legacy - her government has no other significant legislative accomplishments, and is unlikely to get any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 25, 2018 Moderator Share Posted November 25, 2018 1 hour ago, tonyh29 said: I’m not saying the ECJ can’t have a hearing just that I don’t think they can Rule that it can be withdrawn... we’d have to reapply , not that I think that will happen either That is exactly what they are going to rule on! Its the entire crux of the case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 8 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: The maths almost certainly is better than is being reported - I don't for a minute believe that all 94 of @bickster's names will actually rebel - but since she only needs 7 Tory no's to lose, it's pretty much impossible to see it passing. The reason she's doing it despite that, is that 'no deal' is an outright catastrophe that has the potential to plunge the country into the sort of conditions normally associated with the aftermath of natural disasters. She has to do something to try to prevent that. And don't forget, this deal is her legacy - her government has no other significant legislative accomplishments, and is unlikely to get any. I agree with all of that, but why is she using her energy getting approvals in Brussels IF it’s so certain to fail at home? Is she going to follow David Cameron’s lead with “I did my best, see you later, have fun clearing up this mess’ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 25, 2018 Moderator Share Posted November 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Genie said: I agree with all of that, but why is she using her energy getting approvals in Brussels IF it’s so certain to fail at home? Is she going to follow David Cameron’s lead with “I did my best, see you later, have fun clearing up this mess’ To do anything else would be to admit failure its the political equivalent of a Hail Mary She’s already got an Asda delivery slot for Chequers on the 24th December Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 4 minutes ago, bickster said: To do anything else would be to admit failure its the political equivalent of a Hail Mary She’s already got an Asda delivery slot for Chequers on the 24th December Failure on literally the only issue that her government has chosen to address. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 Wouldn’t she be better off selling the deal at home if it was in so much danger? Didnt it get the backing of the cabinet when all the reports were they hated it... I predict it’ll go through. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 The logic from a week or so ago is "everyone knows it's going to fail, so the first vote is a free hit, the markets tank, a couple of cosmetic changes which are already factored in from both sides are added, it's passed on a second run through and everyone gets to say that they voted with their conscience but then had to put the well-being of the country first..." The logic of today points out two problems with last week's logic: 1) if everyone knows this, the markets, price it in, don't tank and everyone stands around awkwardly. 2) if everyone gets to "vote with their conscience" and the deal fails by 300 votes, it's a lot harder to then bring it back. So nobody has a clue what to vote for and what the implications of whatever they vote for would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 When is the vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Genie said: Wouldn’t she be better off selling the deal at home if it was in so much danger? Didnt it get the backing of the cabinet when all the reports were they hated it... I predict it’ll go through. Parliament can't vote on it until the EU have made clear it's a version they can accept. The EU meeting this weekend was nothing more than a necessary formality. The lobbying and pressure and whipping and arm-twisting will start in earnest tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Genie said: Wouldn’t she be better off selling the deal at home if it was in so much danger? Unfortunately nobody on either side is interested in the dead rat they've been served when they were told they were getting chateaubriand for dinner. However much bearnaise sauce the whips cover it with. Edited November 25, 2018 by ml1dch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: Parliament can't vote on it until the EU have made clear it's a version they can accept. The EU meeting this weekend was nothing more than a necessary formality. The lobbying and pressure and whipping and arm-twisting will start in earnest tomorrow. Ok cheers, I just read similar. Its a tick in the box before getting the home crowd on side. I still think it’ll go through though. I think MPs currently opposing will reluctantly approve it as it’s better than the alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 Remaining is better than both alternatives, regardless of what the 'will of the people' was on a single day over 2 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 ^^^ Not an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, Genie said: Ok cheers, I just read similar. Its a tick in the box before getting the home crowd on side. I still think it’ll go through though. I think MPs currently opposing will reluctantly approve it as it’s better than the alternative. As I said, it only requires 7 or 8 Tory 'no's' to defeat the bill. More people than that have resigned from the government rather than vote for the bill, so it would be truly astonishing if you were right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 5 minutes ago, Genie said: ^^^ Not an option. So democracy means people make a decision and that's it then? May as well cancel every other election moving forward if that's what we're doing now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 Just now, StefanAVFC said: Remaining is better than both alternatives, regardless of what the 'will of the people' was on a single day over 2 years ago. Going against the democratic choice of 'the people' can never be the better option. Giving us new information and the opportunity to vote again, fair enough. But to simply decree that staying would be better, at this point, should rightly create real trouble. Perhaps we could also say the result of the last GE was wrong and install a different party in charge? Just now, HanoiVillan said: As I said, it only requires 7 or 8 Tory 'no's' to defeat the bill. More people than that have resigned from the government rather than vote for the bill, so it would be truly astonishing if you were right. Are you presuming here that no Labour would vote for it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 49 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: I can't pretend to be an expert on this, but I'm not following your reasoning? The court case, I thought, was to determine if it is possible to 'unilaterally revoke article 50'. Inherent in the meaning of 'unilaterally' is that it doesn't matter if others agree or not. I'm also not following why we would need to reapply, when we haven't actually left yet. If the ECJ rule that A50 can’t be revoked then in effect that means we are leaving , be it with Mays deal or No deal ...ergo we’d need to reapply , assuming there was a desire to do so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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