The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[peterms]

9 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Now i'm not pro May, but what I do understand is David Davis quit and now recently Dominic Rabb quit being Eu negotiator. The reason they quit is because the EU won't listen or make it easy to leave. No politician will say, although Rabb came close in saying, the EU are as good as blackmailing us into a shit deal.  

It was always obvious, and known, and widely commented on, that the EU would need to ensure that leaving produced outcomes that were worse than remaining.  This should not be a surprise to anyone, and won't have been to Davis and Raab, or anyone else in politics.

This is also why serving notice of A50 so quickly was a stupid blunder.

Davis and Raab imo quit because they came to realise that the available external options for trade deals that they had talked up were largely illusory or would take lots of time to arrange and yield few benefits, and in ths meantime we would lose quite a lot and those responsible would be punished.  Also, May's famous control-freakery and inability to trust colleagues or delegate to them meant that they were mostly circumvented, meaning that they were going to be served a shit sandwich only partly of their making and which they were mostly unable to ameliorate.

Resigning was a rational decision (which is not to say it was taken by them on rational grounds - I don't know).

On the plus side, the tory party is now locked in a dance of death, or at least long-lasting self-harm, which is not only amusing to watch but also very much deserved.   The task for everyone else is to enjoy their pain while limiting the pain for the rest of us.

[bickster]

4 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

Far as I know there isn’t any legal scope to withdraw A50 and remain ... all we could do is reapply and probably on shit terms 

so think we can take remaining off the table

no deal seems the most likely at this stage , no way Mays cluster ****  is getting through parliament 

Care for a wager? £10 to the charity of choice. I'll be betting on what I consider to be the foregone conclusion of the ECJ hearing starting Tuesday and you'll be going against that and all the public statements by EU Leaders to the contrary

[peterms]

2 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

Far as I know there isn’t any legal scope to withdraw A50 and remain ... all we could do is reapply and probably on shit terms 

so think we can take remaining off the table

no deal seems the most likely at this stage , no way Mays cluster ****  is getting through parliament 

There are two possible routes to withdraw A50, one unilateral, on which a court opinion has been sought, and the other by agreement, which is undeniably possible but which would require nimble political footwork.  There is also extension.  All can be considered before leaving and reapplying.

Remaining is more obviously on the table than it has been at any time since the referendum.

No deal will not happen.  Both remaining, and a fudge leading to an extension resulting in a revised version of the "no longer amendable" deal are both more likely.

[Seat68]

39 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

I haven't posted in this thread for a while so thought I would update with my opinion.

Now i'm not pro May, but what I do understand is David Davis quit and now recently Dominic Rabb quit being Eu negotiator. The reason they quit is because the EU won't listen or make it easy to leave. No politician will say, although Rabb came close in saying, the EU are as good as blackmailing us into a shit deal. 

They don't want us to leave, they can't afford it for one. all them unelected EU  Bureaucrates have extremely high salaries and bonuses you know. Also if they made it easy, surely all the other nation states would be thinking about leaving. Barnier and all them other EU knobbers will make it as hard as possible to leave with a decent deal, then maybe we will consider staying, which is what they need, or is it want!

I agree May is a bit of a walkover, but there is no way Labour or any other politician could negotiate a better deal than what the EU have offered. Truth be known the EU have said that's the deal take it or leave it, the door is now closed, speaks volumes.

Personally, I want out of the cult that is the EU.

Beurocrats they have 33,000 in the eu, we have 400,000 over here. Unelected. People are needed to perform roles, if every role was to be elected we would have election fatigue. Unless you are referring to MEPs, then of course they are elected.  

Edited November 25, 2018 by Seat68

[StefanAVFC]

33 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

I haven't posted in this thread for a while so thought I would update with my opinion.

Now i'm not pro May, but what I do understand is David Davis quit and now recently Dominic Rabb quit being Eu negotiator. The reason they quit is because the EU won't listen or make it easy to leave. No politician will say, although Rabb came close in saying, the EU are as good as blackmailing us into a shit deal. 

They don't want us to leave, they can't afford it for one. all them unelected EU  Bureaucrates have extremely high salaries and bonuses you know. Also if they made it easy, surely all the other nation states would be thinking about leaving. Barnier and all them other EU knobbers will make it as hard as possible to leave with a decent deal, then maybe we will consider staying, which is what they need, or is it want!

I agree May is a bit of a walkover, but there is no way Labour or any other politician could negotiate a better deal than what the EU have offered. Truth be known the EU have said that's the deal take it or leave it, the door is now closed, speaks volumes.

Personally, I want out of the cult that is the EU.

Just a load of nonsense really.

[Seat68]

Basic facebook innit. 

[foreveryoung]

9 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Just a load of nonsense really.

So your would rather stay with the EU, or are you disillusioned to the fact there was a better deal to be had.

Or your a Labour voter, which is worse than the above.

[Genie]

It’s pretty much same as now, all we’re losing is our vote and input on the rules. Given how bad it could be this is the best possible outcome.

Why would people vote against it?

These mythical “better deals”?

Edited November 25, 2018 by Genie

[Seat68]

3 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

So your would rather stay with the EU, or are you disillusioned to the fact there was a better deal to be had.

Or your a Labour voter, which is worse than the above.

Disillusioned to the fact there was a better deal to be had. That makes little sense. 

 

[foreveryoung]

4 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

Disillusioned to the fact there was a better deal to be had. That makes little sense. 

 

I mean, do people think there was a better deal to be had.

[Genie]

1 minute ago, foreveryoung said:

I mean, do people think there was a better deal to be had.

People will always say they think that, but in reality if there was a better deal to be had then we’d have it wouldn’t we? 

I know it’s an unpopular opinion but you have to trust the elected politicians who have all the facts and know all the repercussions of all the elements. Politics are like physics, for every action there is a reaction. It’s ok saying we should have “x”, but the cost is “y”, you have to trust the politicians have covered that and there is a reason why certain things aren’t possible.

[Seat68]

I think thats the problem. It was never going to be a good deal, a positive deal, a deal that gives the UK anything approaching any power. Us remainers see that, we have always seen it, but others say well we need to get out regardless. 

[tonyh29]

34 minutes ago, bickster said:

Care for a wager? £10 to the charity of choice. I'll be betting on what I consider to be the foregone conclusion of the ECJ hearing starting Tuesday and you'll be going against that and all the public statements by EU Leaders to the contrary

I’m not saying the ECJ can’t have a hearing just that I don’t think they can Rule that it can be withdrawn... we’d have to reapply , not that I think that will happen either 

[Genie]

It was always going to be about damage limitation dressed up as something more positive (which is what we have). 

Edited November 25, 2018 by Genie

[foreveryoung]

1 minute ago, Genie said:

People will always say they think that, but in reality if there was a better deal to be had then we’d have it wouldn’t we? 

I know it’s an unpopular opinion but you have to trust the elected politicians who have all the facts and know all the repercussions of all the elements. Politics are like physics, for every action there is a reaction. It’s ok saying we should have “x”, but the cost is “y”, you have to trust the politicians have covered that and there is a reason why certain things aren’t possible.

This is my belief, but alot of people/politicians think they could have done better. That's the deal the EU have offered period!

No other country will want to go through the bullshit we have, an that's exactly what they want!

[StefanAVFC]

31 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

So your would rather stay with the EU, or are you disillusioned to the fact there was a better deal to be had.

Or your a Labour voter, which is worse than the above.

I'd like to remain and continue to grow and reform from within it. The deal as offered effectively ties us to the EU but we lose all of the benefits including FoM (disgraceful from May to paint FoM as a negative btw. Jingoistic flag waving at its worst)

I'm a UK citizen living in the EU. I see the good the EU has done, and continues to do for Poland even when the Polish government continue to spit in their faces.

Your post was nonsense because it was just empty platitudes and soundbites with zero substance.

As for them making it difficult to leave. Of course they will. They need to protect their collective interests as a 27; which is why the EU exists in the first place.

Brexit is the biggest act of self-harm we'll all most likely witness in our lifetimes, and the worst thing it's so easily stopped. 

Edited November 25, 2018 by StefanAVFC

[peterms]

44 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

Beurocrats

Not to you personally, because the word is so often misspelt, but people so often misspell "bureaucrat" because they know it is derived from French, and assume it comes from "beau".  In fact it comes from "bureau" ie office, the same word we appropriated to describe a piece of furniture Regency ladies used for letter-writing.

Remembering that avoids the mistaken spelling, forever.

Ooh, that's better.  Glad I got that off ny chest.

 

[Seat68]

12 minutes ago, peterms said:

Not to you personally, because the word is so often misspelt, but people so often misspell "bureaucrat" because they know it is derived from French, and assume it comes from "beau".  In fact it comes from "bureau" ie office, the same word we appropriated to describe a piece of furniture Regency ladies used for letter-writing.

Remembering that avoids the mistaken spelling, forever.

Ooh, that's better.  Glad I got that off ny chest.

 

Julie noted. 

[foreveryoung]

24 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

I'd like to remain and continue to grow and reform from within it. The deal as offered effectively ties us to the EU but we lose all of the benefits including FoM (disgraceful from May to paint FoM as a negative btw. Jingoistic flag waving at its worst)

I'm a UK citizen living in the EU. I see the good the EU has done, and continues to do for Poland even when the Polish government continue to spit in their faces.

Your post was nonsense because it was just empty platitudes and soundbites with zero substance.

As for them making it difficult to leave. Of course they will. They need to protect their collective interests as a 27; which is why the EU exists in the first place.

Brexit is the biggest act of self-harm we'll all most likely witness in our lifetimes, and the worst thing it's so easily stopped. 

Typical Nonsense from a remainer!

So one of the main reasons is because they look after Poland. I think you need to look into the affairs of Donald Tusk to understand why he is trying to look after them.

[StefanAVFC]

1 minute ago, foreveryoung said:

Typical Nonsense from a remainer!

So one of the main reasons is because they look after Poland. I think you need to look into the affairs of Donald Tusk to understand why he is trying to look after them.

Living in a county benefitting from what the EU is about for new entries has definitely opened my eyes to it yes. It's one of a multitude of reasons I voted the way I did. I didn't want to write an essay so I could keep it nice and short for you.

What else in my post is nonsense?