The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[snowychap]

4 minutes ago, bickster said:

Demonic Crab amongst others

Ah, sorry. I thought it was aimed at what I'd posted.

My mistake.

[Chindie]

No Deal klaxon.

[bickster]

1 hour ago, Chindie said:

No Deal klaxon.

That'll never succeed, purely posturing

[OutByEaster?]

I think we should let the EU have a referendum and be legally bound by whatever they decide.

Y'know, just for the resulting angst.

 

 

[ml1dch]

20 hours ago, snowychap said:

Does not having a specific plan for a way out of a mess negate criticism of someone else's plan? Surely the criticisms stand or fall on their own merits?

In this case, not really. Not least, because your criticisms are all pretty well accepted.

I'd bet there's nobody who went to London on Saturday and thought that if they achieved their aim then the whole thing was sorted out forever and people could just return to their happy little pre-June 2016 bubbles.

If a second referendum does happen (and I'm still pretty sure that it won't), then that's square one on the Snakes & Ladders board, not square one hundred. All the problems that you describe are definitely there (and a few others besides), but they are problems to face rather than reasons for people not to try.

[snowychap]

6 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

In this case, not really.

That, frankly, is a load of old bollocks.

But just so that you are satisfied, this is my alternative plan (you appear to have missed it first time round):

8 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Not least, because your criticisms are all pretty well accepted.

I don't agree. I don't think that I have seen many people (there are some, I'll grant) who support a second referendum actually address those issues or, even, acknowledge their merits.
 

12 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

I'd bet there's nobody who went to London on Saturday and thought that if they achieved their aim then the whole thing was sorted out forever and people could just return to their happy little pre-June 2016 bubbles.

I'd bet there's a few but that's not what I've said.

7 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

they are problems to face rather than reasons for people not to try.

Again, you misunderstand.

I haven't said that 'people shouldn't try'. I have said that I don't agree with the method by which they are seeking to achieve their aim.

 

[bickster]

26 minutes ago, snowychap said:

I haven't said that 'people shouldn't try'. I have said that I don't agree with the method by which they are seeking to achieve their aim.

 

What method would you recommend?

[snowychap]

7 minutes ago, bickster said:

What method would you recommend?

Not a second referendum.

 

Edited October 23, 2018 by snowychap

[bickster]

8 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Not a second referendum.

 

So you can't answer the £350mil question 

Criticising a plan is OK if you can offer an alternative approach but when your alternate plan is "not the plan", the criticism falls rather flat imo.

 

[ml1dch]

19 minutes ago, bickster said:

So you can't answer the £350mil question 

Criticising a plan is OK if you can offer an alternative approach but when your alternate plan is "not the plan", the criticism falls rather flat imo.

Well, quite.

[lapal_fan]

It's absolutely impossible to do anything, hence the inaction by anyone on our side of the negotiation. 

We'll wait

and we'll wait

and we'll wait a bit more

The gammons will think they're getting their "empire back"   

The remainers will panic more and more up to the deadline, then we'll have an extension because obviously with all the inaction, we'll need more negotiation time.

and we're in an infinity loop, which will only end with another referendum of some sort, by which time the exiters will be proper mardy, but remain will win because all the people who couldn't vote, but we something like 80% for remain will be well over 16, + another 3 or 4 million kids who hit the threshold.

In summary - it still won't happen. 

[chrisp65]

We've been told quite a few times that the old folks will die off and this will change the result.

I guess the rest of the population have frozen at the ideal age for a remain win, and not got any older?

Personally, I'm not convinced the numbers work out quite that simply. I don't think the tide changes by over a million in such a short space of time.

I'd guess that there are more 70 year olds now than back in 2016 and they aren't all non-binary vegan lefties.

[blandy]

1 minute ago, chrisp65 said:

We've been told quite a few times that the old folks will die off and this will change the result.

I guess the rest of the population have frozen at the ideal age for a remain win, and not got any older?

Personally, I'm not convinced the numbers work out quite that simply. I don't think the tide changes by over a million in such a short space of time.

I'd guess that there are more 70 year olds now than back in 2016 and they aren't all non-binary vegan lefties.

This.

The lesson is surely in the first referendum - never ask a referendum question unless you know the outcome will be the right one.

Cameron broke that "rule". Brexit will be bad for the UK and for the EU. No one wins.

Another referendum for which the answer (never mind the question) is unclear will not solve anything. I get that it's a hope that will mean the whole Brexit clusterpork gets canned, but a "hope" is an inadequate reason to hold one. What if it re-confirms the disaster?

The threat of a referendum is useful as a weapon against the brexit idiots - "carry on as you are and the whole thing you most want could get cancelled".

Most MPs think remaining is best, May and Catweazle think leaving is required so the major parties are pro Brexit. The solution is a soft leave - it always has been and still is. Stay in the single market, be like Norway. yes we'll be a bit worse off, but not calamitously so. No Irish border, no trade problems or people movement problems.

We'll get there, eventually.  

[bickster]

6 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

We've been told quite a few times that the old folks will die off and this will change the result.

I guess the rest of the population have frozen at the ideal age for a remain win, and not got any older?

Personally, I'm not convinced the numbers work out quite that simply. I don't think the tide changes by over a million in such a short space of time.

I'd guess that there are more 70 year olds now than back in 2016 and they aren't all non-binary vegan lefties.

If no one changed their mind, the current rate of change in favour of Remain is approx 1350 per day based on;

The people dying  are by and large in the older age group that polls show are 85% Leave

The people coming of age are, polls show approx 85% Remain. In this instance alone the country becomes majority remain by mid-January

If you factor in the polls showing that 6% have moved position from Remain to Leave and 12% have switched position from Leave to Remain then this brings forward that date

Then you factor in the people that previous abstained which would now vote in a second referendum, these are also predominantly Remain

In all liklihood, the country has been majority remain for a considerable time already

[chrisp65]

34 minutes ago, bickster said:

In all liklihood, the country has been majority remain for a considerable time already

so, just like during the first referendum?

[bickster]

15 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

so, just like during the first referendum?

Well yes and no, the more accurate answer would be - significantly more so now that then

[chrisp65]

Hhmmm, don't get me wrong I'd like it to be true and I'd like this all to go away and we reform the EU from the inside.

But I can't help feeling there's an awful lot of people thinking that if they wish it really really hard, then it'll happen. What I think I've discovered fairly late in life is that actually, the majority of people are pricks and given a choice of constructive improvement, leaving it alone or **** it up, will invariably choose to **** it up.

From entering a junction they can see they can't leave, to voting for the office to buy more scratchcards rather than hand out the winnings, to people like Dyson, Johnson, Fox et al, to voting for 1953, to fat beery twunts wanting their empire back, to sucking up to Saudi because they buy lots of our bombs.

I have a downer on people at the moment. I'm coming back around to thinking the only way anything will work is under a chrisp65 mostly benign absolute dictatorship.

[NurembergVillan]

At least we can rely on James Dyson, the billionaire creator of ugly, over-priced Hoovers, to support jobs and prosperity in the UK after Brexit, what with him being such an outspoken advocate of it all.

What's that?  He's building a car?!  Amazing!  Just last week he was telling the CEOs of companies who already build cars in the UK that they should stop whining as everything will be fine.  Better, even.

I presume his new car factory will either be in the North East, or Wales, where there's loads of cheap, relatively unskilled labour desperate for a chance to get back into well-paid work.

Oh...  Brexit boombox Dyson has chosen Singapore as the location to make his cars?  Well, if that's the right business decision, at least it's a benefit of being outside the EU - that we can now trade with the rest of the world!

**** melt.  I'd sooner shuffle through my home amidst an inch-deep layer of cat hair than line that word removed's pockets paying over the odds for his unreliable, plastic garbage.  Bagless bell end.

[chrisp65]

Shouldn't be a big problem @NurembergVillan ok, we're not going to build his electric cars here, he always ships his manufacturing east, its his maximum profit business model, but at least the EU and Singapore have just concluded years and years of negotiation for tariff free trade.

Oh, hang on...

[Stevo985]

6 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

At least we can rely on James Dyson, the billionaire creator of ugly, over-priced Hoovers, to support jobs and prosperity in the UK after Brexit, what with him being such an outspoken advocate of it all.

What's that?  He's building a car?!  Amazing!  Just last week he was telling the CEOs of companies who already build cars in the UK that they should stop whining as everything will be fine.  Better, even.

I presume his new car factory will either be in the North East, or Wales, where there's loads of cheap, relatively unskilled labour desperate for a chance to get back into well-paid work.

Oh...  Brexit boombox Dyson has chosen Singapore as the location to make his cars?  Well, if that's the right business decision, at least it's a benefit of being outside the EU - that we can now trade with the rest of the world!

**** melt.  I'd sooner shuffle through my home amidst an inch-deep layer of cat hair than line that word removed's pockets paying over the odds for his unreliable, plastic garbage.  Bagless bell end.

I've just bought a Dyson. This has annoyed me