Davkaus Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 I think the only fair thing to do is have another 2 referenda, a year apart, and have it as best out of 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 12 minutes ago, snowychap said: It is a right old mess but I don't see that a second referendum is any way out of it. Well, the obvious question then is what is? They're all terrible options. The implication from your earlier post is that it should be a Government-taken decision to just stop the whole thing. If so, that's also a terrible option. There's no way this plays out that isn't really, really awful in some way. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 There are no good options. The entire thing is ****. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) 39 minutes ago, snowychap said: It is a right old mess but I don't see that a second referendum is any way out of it. These are politicians, not experts. She needed to see Remain in big numbers outside Downing St. The second referendum march was the protest to bring crowds. Edited October 22, 2018 by Xann 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 14 minutes ago, ml1dch said: Well, the obvious question then is what is? Why is that the obvious question? Does not having a specific plan for a way out of a mess negate criticism of someone else's plan? Surely the criticisms stand or fall on their own merits? If not and a plan is required then my plan is this: 15 minutes ago, ml1dch said: The implication from your earlier post is that it should be a Government-taken decision to just stop the whole thing. Then you've inferred incorrectly. If anything, the decisions that are taken should be made by Parliament and not by the Government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 1 minute ago, Xann said: These are politicians, not experts. She needed to see Remain in big numbers outside Downing St and the second referendum march was the protest that was likely bring numbers. Hold on, Dave. I'm not being critical of people going on a march. I'm being critical of what they're asking for - a mechanism by which they assume they'll achieve their actual goal (an end to Brexit). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, snowychap said: ... a mechanism by which they assume they'll achieve their actual goal (an end to Brexit). Not assuming a win for Remain. Hoping. If they do it again? A karma bomb will return for many. Foodbanks and painful delays awaiting NHS treatment all around. It would be lovely to call it off... but she has to be seen to be diplomatic and be seen to show Brexit some respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, Xann said: Not assuming a win for Remain. Hoping. If they do it again? A karma bomb will return for many. Foodbanks and painful delays awaiting NHS treatment all around. It would be lovely to call it off... but she has to be seen to be diplomatic and be seen to show Brexit some respect. Sure, maybe assume was a little strong. Why would a second referendum with either a vote to remain or to leave be any more legitimate a mandate than a first referendum with a vote to leave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 1 minute ago, snowychap said: Why would a second referendum with either a vote to remain or to leave be any more legitimate a mandate than a first referendum with a vote to leave? Ask Rugely 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) STV 3 options No deal Deal that got through parliament Remain 1st round, top 2 go through 2nd round, 2nd preferences move to 1st For example, I'd vote remain, then the deal 2nd. If remain lost first round, I'd rather we have a deal than no deal. It's infinitely more democratic than ploughing ahead or just cancelling it. Edited October 22, 2018 by StefanAVFC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 5 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: STV 3 options No deal Deal that got through parliament Remain 1st round, top 2 go through 2nd round, 2nd preferences move to 1st For example, I'd vote remain, then the deal 2nd. If remain lost first round, I'd rather we have a deal than no deal. It's infinitely more democratic than ploughing ahead or just cancelling it. When do you have this vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said: STV 3 options No deal Deal that got through parliament Remain 1st round, top 2 go through 2nd round, 2nd preferences move to 1st For example, I'd vote remain, then the deal 2nd. If remain lost first round, I'd rather we have a deal than no deal. It's infinitely more democratic than ploughing ahead or just cancelling it. The trouble with this, is the potential for the stupidest option to win. All it takes is for Johnson, Farage, The Sun and Mail to start shouting 'No Deal' and bam, we're in the dark ages. Whatever wins from the options list, people will say they were confused, people will say they never realised the consequence of voting 'x' would cause 'y'. Pretty soon there's a people's march calling for best of 3 wins. Why is David Cameron not being hunted across the fields by a mob of 16 million? Millionaire happy amateur politician pig **** has caused this. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 9 minutes ago, Xann said: Ask Rugely Amusing but not a good answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 22, 2018 Moderator Share Posted October 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, snowychap said: Sure, maybe assume was a little strong. Why would a second referendum with either a vote to remain or to leave be any more legitimate a mandate than a first referendum with a vote to leave? I think the difference here is your view is more ideological and from that point of view you would be correct, it would be no more legitimate than the original referendum On the other hand, the pragmatic view is that a second referendum is the only way (because of the first referendum) for the (albeit very silly) idea that it's "the Will of the People", this, in turn, gives all those politicians that are currently sitting on their hands the excuse to raise them in the air and dump this shite from a great height because again, it would be the "Will of the People". Once someone decided that a genie should come out of the bottle, the only way to get the genie back is to get the bottle out again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 4 minutes ago, snowychap said: Amusing but not a good answer. Dawnings + Deaths + Younger voters coming in. You can see why she'd want to hold for a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 8 minutes ago, snowychap said: When do you have this vote? Yeah you're right, there simply isn't the time now. I'm just outlining my preference for another vote if we were to have one. As i've stated before, we're ****. There's no good options left IMO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, bickster said: On the other hand, the pragmatic view is that a second referendum is the only way (because of the first referendum) for the (albeit very silly) idea that it's "the Will of the People", this, in turn, gives all those politicians that are currently sitting on their hands the excuse to raise them in the air and dump this shite from a great height because again, it would be the "Will of the People". Once someone decided that a genie should come out of the bottle, the only way to get the genie back is to get the bottle out again I don't think it's at all pragmatic to further indulge a nonsense like 'the will of the people'. It wouldn't stop after a second referendum whatever the result (it would either be will of the people mk i v will of the people mk ii or a 'reinforced' will of the people mark i) and it would only further legitimise this idocy elsewhere in politics. Edit: I;ve been trying to work out an appropriate retort to the genie analogy but haven't yet been able to do it. 14 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Yeah you're right, there simply isn't the time now. I'm just outlining my preference for another vote if we were to have one. As i've stated before, we're ****. There's no good options left IMO. Ah, okay. I agree with your last line about no good options. 14 minutes ago, Xann said: Dawnings + Deaths + Younger voters coming in. You can see why she'd want to hold for a year. Are you running with the idea that May has been/is secretly waiting for an opportunity to spike it all? I don't see that. It still doesn't address the idea about legitimacy of ref 2 v ref 1, though. Edited October 22, 2018 by snowychap 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 22, 2018 Moderator Share Posted October 22, 2018 Ah Ok we should all give up and get behind Brexit, its the only way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 6 minutes ago, bickster said: Ah Ok we should all give up and get behind Brexit, its the only way Who has said that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 22, 2018 Moderator Share Posted October 22, 2018 Just now, snowychap said: Who has said that? Demonic Crab amongst others 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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