The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[Davkaus]

I'm not sure there's anything hypocritical about a party leader reflecting the stance of the party. It's a bit harder to justify  for Cameron as the tories as so split, but Corbyn would be doing the Labour party a disservice by arguing for his personal views rather than those of the party, IMO.

Theresa May can never become leader, surely. She'd be about as popular a leader as Jeremy Hunt. Mind you, the general public don't seem to give a **** about the new government surveillance act she's pushed through, so maybe I'm just out of touch.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Davkaus

[Chindie]

27 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

It's a strange one as if Corbyn and Cameron weren't leaders of their respective parties they would both be voting to leave ... Instead they are trying to convince us we should stay , hypocrites the pair of them 

 

ill be honest I'm not really paying attention to the news and what's being said ,like most people I'm bored of the lies .... I'll end up making up my own mind at some point but it won't be based on anything Corbyn , Cameron, Gove or Boris say ... Or Facebook for that matter

 

noticeably May has said very little throughout , so for you betting people lump on her as next leader as I think Boris and Osborne have both become damaged goods over the past few weeks 

You may be right on Corbyn, but I'm fairly sure Cameron would vote Remain in every eventuality except if he were in Boris' position trying to become leader. Cameron is money/business focused, the EU is good for the pockets of many big businesses. He's only an old fashioned Tory in some respects, hence why so many back benchers hate him.

As for Corbyn, I think if the referendum was suggesting 'stay in the EU, or shut the EU down and start again with less business focus' he'd vote leave, as it is Remain is the lesser of 2 evils for him.

And we all know how you're voting Tony

[tonyh29]

I'm not entirely sure you can fairly say that tbh

in a thread where posters have nailed their colours to a mast with "well if Gove is out I'm 100% in" then i understand your confidence in how they will vote 

But , I've  said nothing of the sort , I've said we will get one shot at this and thus it should be in our interest to vote leave for that reason only , but I've also said that come they day I'm likely to surrender like a Jock and vote to stay.

i wanted a convincing argument, from what we've seen it's pretty obvious I'm not going to get it , maybe the Twitter sheep have got it right and I should just pick a numpty see how he's voting and vote the opposite ... 

[Chindie]

I guess that depends on your definition of a convincing argument. I think there are arguments out there that make the case to Remain pretty well, or combat the Leave lines that have been established. But whether you call them convincing I don't know. The arguments made that make the headlines are dumbed down to such an extent they aren't particularly helpful but there are things out there that go into a bit more detail. There was a very good article that binned the sovereignty argument for example a few weeks back.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Chindie

[HanoiVillan]

There's no way Cameron would have voted Out if he wasn't the leader. I don't even think he'd have voted Out if he was in Boris's position. For better or for worse, Cameron is presenting himself basically 'as is' in this referendum. 

Corbyn yes, he would have voted Out if he wasn't leader. That's the Bennite position, and I think Corbyn in perpetual opposition mode would have taken that. 

[HanoiVillan]

Talking about lies and so on, this claim that Turkey is about to join the EU is the biggest load of shit of them all. 

[meregreen]

I don't think Corbyn would have voted out at all. He's stated his position that many years ago he was anti EU because , like so many, he felt at the time the EU was orientated towards benefits for commercial interests, but that over many decades, the social aspects of workers rights and consumer rights, had led to many benefits for ordinary people. That's my opinion too, and over 40 years my view of the EU has changed. There are things that could be better, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

[lapal_fan]

Half the people voting leave BECAUSE of the immigration "problem" are too stupid to realise the people they actually WANT to keep out of the country are the illegal immigrants anyway.

Whenever you actually ask someone if they'd turn away someone who was in genuine danger because of war walking down their streets, they always say "yea, of course we should be helping out".

**** imbeciles man, stupid referendum, for a stupid nation. Highly ironic that it's because of the government themselves and the lack of education in the country that we're even this close to a **** up.

[TheStagMan]

Half the people voting leave BECAUSE of the immigration "problem" are too stupid to realise the people they actually WANT to keep out of the country are the illegal immigrants anyway.

Whenever you actually ask someone if they'd turn away someone who was in genuine danger because of war walking down their streets, they always say "yea, of course we should be helping out".

**** imbeciles man, stupid referendum, for a stupid nation. Highly ironic that it's because of the government themselves and the lack of education in the country that we're even this close to a **** up.

Pathetic comments and a really weak argument. The issues are not about people coming here, they are about the numbers, our infrastructure cannot cope with the numbers arriving in the country and the rate.

I know a lot of intelligent , educated people who want to leave the EU as they can see the unsustainable burden being placed on this country.

As for the illegal immigrants, that's the only thing you got right, they do need to be dealt with as well .

[snowychap]

I had a 'Leave.EU' leaflet put through my door this morning entitled: KNOW THE FACTS!

The first fact they wanted me to know was that the amount paid by the UK over the year was enough to pay for 38 new hospitals.

By the final paragraph of the leaflet, I was told the 'fact' that leaving the EU would provide a £15.3bn windfall - enough to pay for 35 new hospitals.

I know health cost inflation is pretty high but not that high, surely?

[Wainy316]

2 hours ago, TheStagMan said:

Pathetic comments and a really weak argument. The issues are not about people coming here, they are about the numbers, our infrastructure cannot cope with the numbers arriving in the country and the rate.

What about the 1.5 million British people draining Spain's resources that their infrastructure cannot deal with?

[TheStagMan]

What about the 1.5 million British people draining Spain's resources that their infrastructure cannot deal with?

What about them?

[Wainy316]

Just now, TheStagMan said:

What about them?

Well we don't have to worry about them burdening us anymore.  People come, people go, people can move and work freely around the EU.  That's a great progressive thing if you ask me.  Contrary to popular belief not everybody wants to come to Britain to plunder our resources, there's far nicer places.

[TheStagMan]

Well we don't have to worry about them burdening us anymore.  People come, people go, people can move and work freely around the EU.  That's a great progressive thing if you ask me.  Contrary to popular belief not everybody wants to come to Britain to plunder our resources, there's far nicer places.

Hmm, 1.5m over the last 20 years vs. 10m....

Maybe there are nicer places in Europe, but Britain is one of the most desirable places and people do come here and we cannot sustain it. This is an island of limited size. You may like the ability to go anywhere in the EU, many people do not share that view. That does not make them imbeciles, any more than it makes you one.

[colhint]

5 minutes ago, Wainy316 said:

What about the 1.5 million British people draining Spain's resources that their infrastructure cannot deal with?

Spains population is falling according to worldbank  

It's not just numbers of people though, its the density, Spain has 93 people per sq/kl we have 267. 

why do you think property is so expensive here. It's because there is so little land

[chrisp65]

Please please let's not do the small island / no land thing. That is patent rubbish. Just drive around the motorways of the south east and look at the vast areas of countryside. the M4 corridor is almost entirely countryside.

We are not running out of space.

We are trying to squeeze more and more out of existing facilities. We are closing schools and reducing the number of maternity units. We are consolidating the number of police stations and libraries. We are telling social workers they need to take on more cases and we are giving hospitals less money to cope with the number of people in their catchment area.

It's legitimate to say the infrastructure which is being shrunk cannot cope with a growing population. That's logical.

We are not running out of space. We are sweating the existing building stock to maximise 'value'. Incidentally, right now it is estimated there are 600,000 empty homes in england.

 

[Wainy316]

Doesn't matter how many people are using it, the NHS will be under funded proportionately so it looks like it's under performing, giving the government an excuse to sell it off.  Also have you ever flown a plane over Britian?  I'd day say about 5% of the land is urbanised.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2016 by Wainy316

[colhint]

16 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Please please let's not do the small island / no land thing. That is patent rubbish. Just drive around the motorways of the south east and look at the vast areas of countryside. the M4 corridor is almost entirely countryside.

We are not running out of space.

We are trying to squeeze more and more out of existing facilities. We are closing schools and reducing the number of maternity units. We are consolidating the number of police stations and libraries. We are telling social workers they need to take on more cases and we are giving hospitals less money to cope with the number of people in their catchment area.

It's legitimate to say the infrastructure which is being shrunk cannot cope with a growing population. That's logical.

We are not running out of space. We are sweating the existing building stock to maximise 'value'. Incidentally, right now it is estimated there are 600,000 empty homes in england.

 

yet we are the most densely populated country in europe.  That countryside you are talking about is farmland. Now the most basic needs in life are food and water. Would you not think a reasonable assumption be that the country needs farmland to feed it's population? Or should we just import all our food?  If that's the case you may as well disband the military, anyone wanting to attack us will just starve us. Then we need water. For 26 of the last 30 years there has been a hosepipe ban in some form in England. Now we have a few more million who need water, at what point do we fail to provide enough water for the population?  The thing is you can't just magic up water, we only have a limited resource.

[Wainy316]

I don't think that's an issue specifically for Britain.  The whole world is bollocksed if we keep reproducing at the rate we are.

[HanoiVillan]

16 minutes ago, colhint said:

yet we are the most densely populated country in europe.  That countryside you are talking about is farmland. Now the most basic needs in life are food and water. Would you not think a reasonable assumption be that the country needs farmland to feed it's population? Or should we just import all our food?  If that's the case you may as well disband the military, anyone wanting to attack us will just starve us. Then we need water. For 26 of the last 30 years there has been a hosepipe ban in some form in England. Now we have a few more million who need water, at what point do we fail to provide enough water for the population?  The thing is you can't just magic up water, we only have a limited resource.

We already produce less than 60% of the food we eat, so the notion it's some kind of 'last line of defence' is pretty questionable. And while areas might need hosepipe bans, on a global scale we're one of the least-adversely affected countries in terms of water issues.