Genie Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 Just now, bannedfromHandV said: I just don’t think a situation exists where we can go back to enjoying the full benefits of EU membership without being an EU member. I agree, we won’t get back what we had but we can improve on where we are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 Just now, Genie said: I agree, we won’t get back what we had but we can improve on where we are now. But how much can it improve, what’s the motivation for the EU to be flexible? We’d be relying on a level of good-will that has been entirely eroded under this Tory government. The best thing we can do is for Labour to call a second referendum, when the time is right, and use it as a platform to draw a line under a dark period in UK politics. I’m confident the referendum would result in a larger majority in favour of a return than that which invoked the leaving. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 31, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 31, 2023 2 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: The best thing we can do is for Labour to call a second referendum No, that really isn't the best approach at all The best approach is to campaign in an election to "explore the possibility of our return to the EU", after those talks have concluded and a deal reached, then have a confirmatory referendum on whether we should rejoin or not There is absolutely no point in going straight to a referendum, it makes the exact same fundamental mistake the original referendum made 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted January 31, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted January 31, 2023 3 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: But how much can it improve, what’s the motivation for the EU to be flexible? We’d be relying on a level of good-will that has been entirely eroded under this Tory government. The best thing we can do is for Labour to call a second referendum, when the time is right, and use it as a platform to draw a line under a dark period in UK politics. I’m confident the referendum would result in a larger majority in favour of a return than that which invoked the leaving. We're still a massive market for Europe. They can sell a lot of shit here. And especially if we're trying to rebalance away from China. We might still have some stuff they'd like to buy cheaper/easier from us. I'm sure most of the hardine Joe public Brexiteers mainly just wanted to stop being ruled by the EU laws they couldn't name and had no real knowledge of, and for racist reasons. I don't think most of them would give a shit what the trade deal looked like or what it committed us to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 5 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: But how much can it improve, what’s the motivation for the EU to be flexible? We’d be relying on a level of good-will that has been entirely eroded under this Tory government. The best thing we can do is for Labour to call a second referendum, when the time is right, and use it as a platform to draw a line under a dark period in UK politics. I’m confident the referendum would result in a larger majority in favour of a return than that which invoked the leaving. There are non-EU countries like Norway & Iceland who enjoy access to the EU single market via membership to the EEA (European Economic Area). Switzerland have another arrangement with the EU without being EU members. It’s not an all or nothing situation despite the UK going for the very worst scenario possible. The UK is out of every sensible pact possible, by its own choice 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 10 minutes ago, bickster said: No, that really isn't the best approach at all The best approach is to campaign in an election to "explore the possibility of our return to the EU", after those talks have concluded and a deal reached, then have a confirmatory referendum on whether we should rejoin or not There is absolutely no point in going straight to a referendum, it makes the exact same fundamental mistake the original referendum made Probably the way to go but it does hinge upon the EU being willing to agree to invest any time in negotiations that might all be a complete waste of time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 31, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 31, 2023 Just now, Davkaus said: Probably the way to go but it does hinge upon the EU being willing to agree to invest any time in negotiations that might all be a complete waste of time They've already said they'd much rather deal with Starmer than the Tories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 Maybe Germany being a bit **** is a good thing for the UK. They might see some bounce in their economy if the UK rejoined on some level and could be an unlikely ally in negotiations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 16 minutes ago, bickster said: They've already said they'd much rather deal with Starmer than the Tories Sure, but that still doesn't change the wider parameters of the changes that are possible. There's no "you're less of a prick than the last lot" clause in a negotiating mandate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 1 hour ago, bickster said: No, that really isn't the best approach at all The best approach is to campaign in an election to "explore the possibility of our return to the EU", after those talks have concluded and a deal reached, then have a confirmatory referendum on whether we should rejoin or not There is absolutely no point in going straight to a referendum, it makes the exact same fundamental mistake the original referendum made I don’t think they need to campaign on it as part of the election, why run that risk? Wait until in power, steer the narrative in the right direction and then begin talking about rejoining and ultimately, a second referendum. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 1 hour ago, Genie said: There are non-EU countries like Norway & Iceland who enjoy access to the EU single market via membership to the EEA (European Economic Area). Switzerland have another arrangement with the EU without being EU members. It’s not an all or nothing situation despite the UK going for the very worst scenario possible. The UK is out of every sensible pact possible, by its own choice Yep, and happy to be educated but I don’t think any of those countries were previous EU full members and who then went through an acrimonious separation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 31, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 31, 2023 2 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: I don’t think they need to campaign on it as part of the election, why run that risk? Wait until in power, steer the narrative in the right direction and then begin talking about rejoining and ultimately, a second referendum. That really will not work. Rejoin by the back door and Farage et al doing Tasmanian Devil impressions Politics works better for the people if politicians are honest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 Todays yougov survey is about Brexit First question about how people voted, 29% said they voted leave. Another question about regrets 24% said they voted leave and don’t regret it. Higher than I thought. 76% thought the leave campaign was dishonest. 67% thought remain was honest. 86% think there are still clear divisions. 75% think more bad has come from Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 7 minutes ago, bickster said: That really will not work. Rejoin by the back door and Farage et al doing Tasmanian Devil impressions Politics works better for the people if politicians are honest But I don’t think they need to be dishonest about it necessarily, and the point is to put the choice back to the people so it’s not about getting in on one promise and then doing the opposite. In terms of steering the narrative, all they need to do is be factual about it all, at the moment in terms of what comes out of the government it’s all positive re Brexit because ‘getting it done’ is about all they have to sell themselves on, with a more objective power in place I’d expect the narrative to be more damning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 2 hours ago, Genie said: There are non-EU countries like Norway & Iceland who enjoy access to the EU single market via membership to the EEA (European Economic Area). Switzerland have another arrangement with the EU without being EU members. It’s not an all or nothing situation despite the UK going for the very worst scenario possible. The UK is out of every sensible pact possible, by its own choice the laugh wasn't at your post, just at how ridiculous that graphic looks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 1 minute ago, Seat68 said: the laugh wasn't at your post, just at how ridiculous that graphic looks. There’s leaving the EU, and then there’s completely shooting yourself in the foot… then the other foot, then the leg, then the face. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted January 31, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted January 31, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 31, 2023 Author Moderator Share Posted January 31, 2023 4 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said: Yep, and happy to be educated but I don’t think any of those countries were previous EU full members and who then went through an acrimonious separation. Indeed. And I've read and heard that they wouldn't recommend their "deals" to anyone else. They're quite flawed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one_ian_taylor Posted January 31, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted January 31, 2023 6 hours ago, Genie said: There are non-EU countries like Norway & Iceland who enjoy access to the EU single market via membership to the EEA (European Economic Area). Switzerland have another arrangement with the EU without being EU members. It’s not an all or nothing situation despite the UK going for the very worst scenario possible. The UK is out of every sensible pact possible, by its own choice Oh Christ, I find seeing a diagram like that again very triggering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 1 hour ago, blandy said: Indeed. And I've read and heard that they wouldn't recommend their "deals" to anyone else. They're quite flawed Still, you have to expect that. There's no such thing as a perfect international deal/union/trade agreement. In, out, or one of the half a dozen positions in between, there'd be benefits, and there are flaws. You'd be hard pressed to find one of the others that results in about 100 billion negatives a year though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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